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Jks Higher Min.wage Vs. Gwbs Eucation Plan

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As far as I understand it the question is about the Bush approach and the Kerry approach as applied to the US economy. Citing UK statistics and Canadian statistics are irrelevant.

 

The statement was that 1 in 4 people could not write that is illiteracy. Functional illiteracy is an inability to perform academically at a level that allows them to compete in the workforce. One could have an advanced degree and not be competitive in the workforce hence functionally illiterate for that work force. That does not mean that they are illiterate.

 

The question was about education not forms of government. You cannot exclude a country (Cuba) because you don't like their form of government, The argument was education produces wealth.

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you exclude a government because it doesnt afford the ability to gain wealth. A communist country effectively limits the amount of wealth an individual can gain. Comparing it to capitalist or even socialist countries isnt fair. Apples to oranges.

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The argument was education produces wealth.

Regarding the question of it producing wealth, I think that is not relevant. We are talking about giving people the ability to be self-sufficient. That is what the political platforms are about, not about building wealth.

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you exclude a government because it doesnt afford the ability to gain wealth.  A communist country effectively limits the amount of wealth an individual can gain.  Comparing it to capitalist or even socialist countries isnt fair.  Apples to oranges.

It is simply a completely different economic model and cannot be compared for these purposes.

 

The communist method provides people with what they need by giving it to them. The Capitalist method requires that they earn it for the most part.

 

Communism has already been demonstrated as a failure.

Edited by Chopdoc

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But if education produces wealth or reduces poverty it should be effective in any system. In fact the increased education should result the society rising from poverty rather than the individual. This would suggest that education may be necessary but is not sufficient wealth production.

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Communism has already been demonstrated as a failure.

So has pure capitalism, that is why the United States is no longer pure capitalism they are the closet thing we have ever seen to capitalism but it is just a working capitalism and does not follow all of the rules of capitalism.

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But if education produces wealth or reduces poverty it should be effective in any system. In fact the increased education should result the society rising from poverty rather than the individual. This would suggest that education may be necessary but is not sufficient wealth production.

Not if the system does not reward the individual based on the level of their contribution.

 

"To each according to their need, from each according to their ability"

 

 

Yes, overall, education should elevate society, you are right. But using a Communist nation as an example is not a good example. They are essentially a failure anyway.

 

Let's look at the most educated non-communist nations. The Swiss etc.

 

I think you will see a tend world wide.

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But if education produces wealth or reduces poverty it should be effective in any system. In fact the increased education should result the society rising from poverty rather than the individual.  This would suggest that education may be necessary but is not sufficient wealth production.

Education doesn't produce wealth nor reduce poverty NO MATTER WHAT, there are many other factors to be considered. I am only reiterating that education (and intelligence) will increase oppurtunity so that one CAN obtain wealth and thus be less likely to be impoverished. If you want to play the extreme scenario, you could have the smartest, most business saveoy, innovative, creative individual on the face of the planet, but if you stick them somewhere without oppurtunity (let's say the northern most region os Siberia) he will not be productive. The driving force here is FREE WILL, without free will people would not attend schools to become educated, without free will people will CHOOSE not to place themselves within a demographic of oppurtunity. As the world (and especially Western Civilization) is designed today, a person from the most impoverished beginnings can obtain wealth, education is a catalyst to this process.

 

Yes, there are many ways to measure success, but the only proven methond if measuring economic success is relative wealth.

Edited by Z10N

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It seems there is a consensus reached. Intelligence is needed to benefit from education. Education is helpful in advancing financial gain. So increasing education to those who lack intelligence (relative intelligence) is not effective at raising the income level of many functioning at a low level. These are the same people who benefit from raising the minimum wage. So to improve quality of life, to decrease poverty, to improve the economy it is more effective to increase the minimum wage than to throw education at those who cannot benefit.

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It seems there is a consensus reached. Intelligence is needed to benefit from education. Education is helpful in advancing financial gain.  So increasing education to those who lack intelligence (relative intelligence) is not effective at raising the income level of many functioning at a low level. These are the same people who benefit from raising the minimum wage. So to improve quality of life, to decrease poverty, to improve the economy it is more effective to increase the minimum wage than to throw education at those who cannot benefit.

Well, unfortunately as thousands of years of history have dictated, giving money to the poor does nothing to decrease poverty, in many cases it increases the gap between the classes. Eduation of the masses does work (it will not solve eveyone's financial status) but will aid the majority.

 

Education DOES benefit everyone, there isn't a person on the planet the wouldn't benefit from more knowledge and experience, one one end of the spectrum you'd have more professionals with better skills, on the other end you'll have an increase of general competence, it sure would be nice to deal with sheer idiocracy and incompetence everywhere you go outside of the professional realm.

 

I've done a great deal of traveling worldwide, it never ceases to amaze me that outside of (relatively well educated western/global economic civilization) the general populace of most countries still believes the earth is flat!

Edited by Z10N

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Education is only helpful to the extent that there is capacity. If you take a glass full of water you cannot put more water in it no matter how long you pour.

 

I am not advocating decreasing educational opportunity but to suggest that education which one lacks the capacity for will be useful or helpful is not even logical.

 

"giving monty to the poor does nothing to decrease poverty, in many cases it increases the gap between the classes"

 

First no one here has advocated giving money to anyone. Increasing the minimum wage means that people earning money earn enough money to pay for food and shelter instead of seeking handouts and subsidies.

 

Second please cite an example of where giving money to the poor has increased the gap between the classes?

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Second please cite an example of where giving money to the poor has increased the gap between the classes?

Money given to the poor and middle classes is quickly spent (in general), that money eventually finds it's way into the pockets of the rich, this is one reason why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

 

Raising the minimum wage IS essentially giving money away because you are increasing the value of an hour's work without any substantial merit for this raise. Thus you increase spending while productivity remains constant, they get something for nothing.

Edited by Z10N

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Money given to the poor and middle classes is quickly spent (in general), that money eventually finds it's way into the pockets of the rich, this is one reason why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

 

Raising the minimum wage IS essentially giving money away because you are increasing the value of an hour's work without any substantial merit for this raise. Thus you increase spending while productivity remains constant, they get something for nothing.

:blink::huh:

 

The merit for the raise is to help these people advance their situation. Having an extra $3000 a year certainly will not hurt their situation and hopefully they will use the money on education, in which you cited sources that show higher education equals higher success. Raising the minimum wage will not affect the average buyer it will just cut away from a small percentage of the employers profits so I cannot understand why the average middle class person would be worried about raising the minimum wage.

 

We certainly cannot leave the situation as it is now, the situation is just getting worse and worse and we cannot continue to turn a blind eye to the situation. I would like to see many more social programs to help the less fortunate achieve success, but many people do not even support an increase of minimum wage (which will not directly influence their wallets) so they would definately not support the idea of increasing taxes to help these people out.

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I don't think taxes need to be raised, I think they should be reallocated.

 

I'd be for any plan that worked, Kerry's "plan" to raise wages is more of a political ploy to ensnare the minimum wage voter demographic.

 

Bush has an actual plan that has shown promise, although it is not enough to remedy the situation.

Edited by Z10N

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Bush's plan is just as much a political ploy as Kerry's. "No child left behind" campaign has tried to show parents that funding is going to their children but the fact of the matter is it was no where near the amount of money that needed to be allocated to this and it has done nothing to improve America.

 

The United States is not a 3rd world country and it is about time the employers begin to treat their workers with some dignity. The emplyers have shown that they will exploit the workers at any cost and it is about time the government steps in and gets some results.

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Reallocated from what...that thing Bush lables "the Liberation of Iraq"?

That damn thing costs unimaginable sums of money which *poof* seems to have just dissapeared because there is really no result for the amount being spent.

 

This money spent in Iraq could have helped ease into both projects, it could have greatly improved education and helped companies ease into a higher wage structure. But apparently Mr. Bush thought a potential foreign threat was more important to deal with opposed to an imminent domestic crisis. Some flawed logic IMO.

 

If people are even questioning the minimum wage, then I think some consideration into the matter is required. It is not enough money to raise a family on, in fact barely enough for one person to live on. No person deserves to just live and have no other existance. There has to be some substance to their lives. So if the extra money they receive from the wage increase helps make their pathetic lives just a little bit more happy...or at least helps to break the cycle and helps provide some hope for change then I'd be in favor of it.

 

I think it is difficult to choose between education and min wage because they are both so important yet affect different demographics in profound ways.

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"Money given to the poor and middle classes is quickly spent (in general), that money eventually finds it's way into the pockets of the rich, this is one reason why the rich get richer and the poor get poorer."

 

The money is earned and not given.

 

Money will always find its way to the rich. They invest and the investment is returned (hopefully). Unless you are advocating for the abolition of wealth and a socialist state your response makes no sense. Your statement would seem to suggest that the middle class and the poor should not be paid at all because the money eventually finds its way to th wealthy. Even if you left only the wealthy class they would increase their wealth based upon their ownership.

 

As far as I know the goal is not to deprive the wealthy of money it is to increase the wealth and comfort of the middle and lower classes.

 

Your argument that the money is quickly spent is the argument for increasing the minimum wage. Money spent improves the economy.

 

"Raising the minimum wage IS essentially giving money away because you are increasing the value of an hour's work without any substantial merit for this raise. Thus you increase spending while productivity remains constant, they get something for nothing. "

 

The "merit" is in the increased productivity which has been increasing steadily without increase in income (except to the profit margins of the companies).

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So has pure capitalism, that is why the United States is no longer pure capitalism they are the closet thing we have ever seen to capitalism but it is just a working capitalism and does not follow all of the rules of capitalism.

I would argue that. Capitalism has been blended with social programs etc but it has not failed. It drives the world economy at the moment. Edited by Chopdoc

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If people are even questioning the minimum wage, then I think some consideration into the matter is required.  It is not enough money to raise a family on, in fact barely enough for one person to live on.  No person deserves to just live and have no other existance.  There has to be some substance to their lives.  So if the extra money they receive from the wage increase helps make their pathetic lives just a little bit more happy...or at least helps to break the cycle and helps provide some hope for change then I'd be in favor of it.

 

I think it is difficult to choose between education and min wage because they are both so important yet affect different demographics in profound ways.

I don't believe it is intended to be enough money to raise a family on.

 

I would argue strenuously against any proposal to provide that kind of minimum wage.

 

Do we really need to pay 16 year olds sweeping floors enough to raise a family? How large a family?

 

I would also argue that if one does not make enough money to raise a family one needs to do better before they start one. Education will help with that.

 

Society should not have to pay for the poor judgement of people who destroy their own lives and the lives of their children by creating a family without the means to support it.

 

It is easy to choose between education and minimum wage.

 

Here...try it...suppose you are 18....what would you prefer, an education or minimum wage?

 

See how easy it is?

 

If you answered minimum wage then don't expect to be able to do much with your life until you find a way to earn more. In fact you should expect to live a meager exsistence, maybe living with friends or relatives. Heck, you could even get a second job while you go to school so you can do better...oh...but you chose no education.

 

 

See what an easy choice it is?

 

 

Let's say the question were absolute!

 

Either do away with education or minimum wage. See how easy the choice becomes when you exagerate it like that?

 

Minimum wage is FAR less imprtant than education. The minimum wage has a great historic importance, I can agree with that. But even in that regard it pales next to education.

Edited by Chopdoc

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I tend to agree that raising the minimum wage isn't going to accomplish all that much. Our economy already avoids the minimum wage by hiring lots of illegals that will work at or below that wage. We do that (collectively) because we value low prices over social equality--just like people shop at Walmart despite all the bad things local civic and business leaders say. And like Chopdoc says, not everyone paid those low wages is trying to raise and feed a family on them. If the wage isn't enough they either need to find a higher paying job or reduce their expenses.

 

More education would be great, except that the schools are not teaching the common sense skills it takes to live within your means. Nobody wants to face the fact that we are not going to see 100% of the people going to Harvard, so we have a system that tries to treat everyone equally with a slant towards higher education. What we need to do is have the opportunity for people prepared for trades, for jobs that are an honest day's work but don't require college.

 

We also need everyone getting an education to be prepared for life where they will have to control their spending habits and live within a budget. They need to understand that there are predatory people and companies that will try to drain them of money through tricky contracts, deceptive interest rates, and hidden fees. They need to know that a 72-month car loan is a scam, and that a cell phone is not a right, it's an expense.

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While there are people that are not trying to raise a family on minimum wage there are those that are.

 

What jobs are minimum wage? Most of the non-managerial fast food jobs. Cashiers at grocery stores, baggers at grocery stores, floor help in retail stores. Yes these jobs are often filled by school kids but do the math, there are way more of those jobs than there are school kids. Those jobs are held by people that can't find other work, aren't smart enough to get other work, or have had a change in their fortunes (homemakers that are divorced, people that rose above their education in their job but whose bosses died, or the company closed) These are people who didn't choose to raise a family on minimum wage but may have no choice.

 

Granted some did choose to have a family and only have skills for minimum wage jobs. Are people proposing that their families be removed from them? Is it your suggestion that only middle class people that will never fall into the lower class from bad investments or illness can have families? I have no problem with this but I am not sure that most of the population would accept that.

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While there are people that are not trying to raise a family on minimum wage there are those that are.

whos fault is that though? Its not the corps fault and it surely isnt up to the government to make sure they can raise a family they cant afford.

 

What jobs are minimum wage? Most of the non-managerial fast food jobs. Cashiers at grocery stores, baggers at grocery stores, floor help in retail stores.

I dont know what job pays minimum wage because I have never even seen one. Fast food jobs start at $8/hr and I have never came across anyone in a grocery store in california that makes less than $12/hr. Even floorhelp at retail stores start at $7.50. Is any of this enough to raise a family...not really but they should have thought of that before they had children. I understand that your argument includes people who lose their jobs and have to start over at the lower rung of the pay scale but this is why I advocate an overhaul of the welfare system in this country in order to give temporary aid to these individuals instead of the people who chose to remain poor. I say its a choice because much of the time it is in fact a choice.

Edited by one2gamble

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I would argue that.  Capitalism has been blended with social programs etc but it has not failed.  It drived the world economy at the moment.

Then communism has been blended with economic freedom, hence socialism in Sweden :rolleyes:

 

EDIT: By the way mixed economies drive the world, not capitalism :)

Edited by cpuguru

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More education would be great, except that the schools are not teaching the common sense skills it takes to live within your means.

I have a few things to say about that.

 

1) I believe practical living skills should be mostly taught at home and are a critical part of parenting.

 

2) Our schools are teaching kids the wrong values by blowing fortunes on sports. Nothing wrong with teaching healthy exercise, but the way it is now is a shame.

 

3) Throwing money at the public schools is not the answer. To me, being for education means reform of a failing system, and getting better teachers. Throw the money at College students and make the public schools take the money they need from their football teams.

 

4) I repeat, we need better teachers. I don't mean to insult anybody but it is a plain fact. There also needs to be a better system in place for protecting students from bad teachers and favoritism. This is a real problem and must stop.

 

5) I also believe we should seriously consider increasing the length of the school day and the length of the school year.

 

6) There are so many text book scams out there it is scary. Have you looked at your children's text books? Have you seen the errors? How is this acceptable?

 

 

If we just throw money at the schools they will build stadiums and tennis courts. The students will get little real benefit from that. It needs to be done in a very correct way.

 

 

 

The best class I ever had happened in a room about 150 years old, I sat in a chair about 100 years old, the teacher was the best I ever had. We never touched the book. That school had no football team, no fraternities, and no stadium. That school had a 98% acceptance rate to med school for its pre-med students.

 

It's about priorities.

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Then communism has been blended with economic freedom, hence socialism in Sweden :rolleyes:

 

EDIT: By the way mixed economies drive the world, not capitalism :)

OK then, since you would like to split hairs:

 

Capitalism is BY FAR the major driving force in the world economy.

 

How much Socialism do you see on the floor of the Stock Exchanges?

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