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chengrob

Blix's Assessment Of Iraq

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Rumfield said yesterday that if we need more boots on the ground the army can have them. However, I understood him to say that he has no reason to think that there is a need now.

 

I do hear that the US is trying to outsource more of its military services that are doing security in Iraq to private security firms. The idea being that every soldier or marine not manning a guard post can be out kicking down a door.

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Well I posted awhile back about a proposal to put Saddam back in power, I think that should be revisited. At least he will control the population without breeding terrorists or allowing his country to become a terrorist base camp.

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Well I posted awhile back about a proposal to put Saddam back in power, I think that should be revisited. At least he will control the population without breeding terrorists or allowing his country to become a terrorist base camp.

I have said many times it takes a dictator to control a country like this.

 

How many graves do we fill with Iraqi's before someone says oh my god look at the "mass graves"?

 

The only difference is we will claim some high moral ground, but in the end it's all the same. They now look at us as oppressors, they will look at anyone who uses force and guns to control them as oppressors. Not all that different from the dictator who used his military might, and guns to keep them under control.

 

 

Has anyone stopped to consider that the so called mass graves in Iraq were from the very same kind of revolt and resistance we now face?

 

The graves being filled now wouldn't look much different, filled with peoples brothers and sisters and fathers and children. Of course ten years from now if you asked the people in the streets where did they all come from, they would tell you the Americans just came in and butchered and tortured everyone.

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Bruce,

 

That article is what I was talking about. It really scared the crap out of me.

 

Both sides are totally dug in now. We are not leaving or else it will look (in an election year no less) like we are soft on terrorism. Although I believe that the people attacking our troops in Iraq have nothing to do with Al Quaeda, I think the distinction will be lost on most American people. Bush's primary election hook is that he is strong on the war on terrorism. There is no way we can back out. My hunch is that we will do the opposite. We need to double up now. The 'enemy' is growing larger, and we need more troops there now.

 

On the other side, they are making this a religious war. I realize that Clark and Blix are extremely biased but they might have a point. If these religious leaders can paint America as their common enemy to the Muslim religion, they will grow in strength and potentially create a larger threat to American security than Saddam himself. Even if Saddam had had WMD, this new threat feels much worse to me.

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I agree, Rob. Note that 'Old Islam' is attempting to distance itself before it develops into a cultural slaughter. To convince me though, they would have to put some troops in the field themselves. A battallion or two of Saudis would be a good start.

 

Islamic Stand on Terrorism

 

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Greetings All,

 

Throughout history, human society has suffered from terrorism, violence, and extremism. This suffering has increased in this day and age, causing physical and moral damage to many communities and culminating in an international phenomenon which preoccupies the mind and causes concern to everyone seeking peace, security and stability.

 

Islam, undoubtedly, has a clear stand on terrorism, violence, and extremism and on their causes as it abhors such phenomena and combats them, calling for cooperation with others to protect mankind from their dangers and consequences. Given its complex nature, terrorism requires scientific investigation which addresses its roots, causes, consequences and the ways to combat it.

 

In order to clarify the position of Islam on these phenomena and to expound its moderations, goodness and call for dialogue, the idea arose to hold a conference entitled ‘The Stand of Islam on Terrorism, Violence, and Extremism’ at Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud University.

 

 

To view Islamic Stand on Terrorism:

 

http://www.islamstand.org/english/index.htm

 

For correspondence and inquiries:

 

E-Mail: [email protected]

 

 

Regards,

 

Electronic Publisher

 

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Moon,

 

It would make me feel substantially better if we could find some portion of the Muslim population that openly supports our activities in Iraq. No matter what our intentions were in Iraq (you pick: Oil, WMD, Saddam was a bad guy, to get out of Saudi Arabia, links to Al Quaeda), it has turned out very different than we had intended. If this turns into a religious war, God help us all.

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Just read this off Yahoo News. We really need another news story quickly that shows how much the American occupation is supported at this point.

 

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...q_neighbours_dc

 

I might be missing something here, but although there is a tranfer of power, we still plan to keep the military there in full force, right? It seems to me that our military presence is what is sparking the controversy and not the particular lack of government.

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We'll get support on terrorism, Rob, but not on Iraq. We can't even agree amongst ourselves. However, we refused Kurdish military help at the outset. Perhaps it's time to accept some, regardless of who it upsets.

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Rob you have voiced my greatest fear. The last time the world had a religious war it was truly a world war and it lasted decades. I would hate to see that occur again. I think that there is a considerable risk of this happening either through ignorance (of the US goals) or through instigation by religious peoples that truly believe there is only room for 1 God and it is their God.

 

I know that there are those that think that this could be resolved quickly with the right amount of force applied in the right places but then history teaches a different lesson (bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Hitlers attack on Russia, Japan's attack on Pearl Harbor, Saddam's attack on Iran, Saddam's attack on Kuwait,Bush's attack of Iraq,).

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Well I am no expert but it looks to me like the Iraqis are attacking the coalition forces rather than the American forces. I am assuming that the goal is to cause those allies to withdraw from Iraq. They are numerically inferior causing the US to either divert troops to reinforce allies or to abandon the allied troops. Of course I am assuming that the long term goal is, as with Spain, to get the coalition troops to withdraw. current Fighting

 

There are also reports that some Mosks have been attacked with laser guided bombs but apparently this was not the Mosk with the radical cleric in it.

 

Several reports indicate that the violence is stable or subsiding.

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Well, if it turns into a war over 'god' then I won't be turning up. I might be ever so slightly mad but I'm not daft. :)

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Well I hope this is wrong. It says , among other things, that the Cleric may have 10s of thousands of people willing to fight and die for him. war news

Does this mean that Syria might get involved in this mess? There are clashes along their border?

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I've believed from the onset that this has the potential of becoming another world war......religion is way to fervent for what we are attempting to accomplish in this region of the world.

 

All one needs to do is look at the history books and understand the psychology of this region......military strategizing really accounts for not much at this point.....hope I'm wrong of course.

Edited by Devan

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Gloves off then. These guys just don't know when to keep their heads down.

 

New 'al-Qaeda' warning on Iraq

 

 

The tape's authenticity has not yet been verified  

An audiotape allegedly recorded by a Jordanian-born al-Qaeda suspect, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, has threatened attacks on US commanders in Iraq.

The tape - aired on an Islamist website - also claimed responsibility for a number of high-profile attacks there.

 

Zarqawi's whereabouts are unknown, but the website had a transcript heading that said he was in Iraq.

 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_ea...ast/3604953.stm

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Well, if it turns into a war over 'god' then I won't be turning up. I might be ever so slightly mad but I'm not daft. :)

This is my personal viewpoint, with no intention of upsetting anyone...My statements are based on my own eyes and ears and in no way 'supports' one side or the other....

 

What is it about then Moon?.....WMD...Saddam...Revenge for 9/11 and not finding Bin Laden...I think we have to realise that this is...was and always will be about religion....

 

It started with American policy in the Middle East...prompting 'death to the infidel' from Bin Laden...I firmly believe that Bin Laden knew exactly what he was unleashing with this attack...

 

Bin Laden could not be found and revenge was taken out on Iraq....Through frustration and a need to let the US know that something was done as reparation for 9/11...

 

As I keep saying .....We are now in this for the duration...It aint going away... and we will need to be able to stomach the body count mounting alarmingly....I am not scare mongering but I'm afraid that the Arab population know that we are not great at dying for beliefs....Moon is a perfect example inasmuch that he knows that we cannot fight these people on religious grounds...I hate to say it but our faith is weak and we don't have the singlemindedness to view thousands of deaths as part of the 'struggle'....

 

Our dichotomy is that we want to finish this but we have a raft of people who are not convinced of it's justification....

 

The high moral ground...is with the arab nations because they are only defending their position and their beliefs...We on the other hand are the agressors and the 'Satan'..

 

It matters not to them about 9/11....sure go and get the guy/guys responsible for this but don't start on all other arabs and muslims for no reason...I think that is how they see what we are doing now....drawing us further and further into the mire...

 

Withdraw now and we will regain the ability to regroup and assess...Pitch battle and we will have to stay until...I don't know...just until...

 

I think what is more alarming is that whilst we get more and more focussed on the Middle East....we are leaving ourselves more and more vunerable in our backyards...

 

I despair of a solution at the minute and look forward to a more balanced and constructive argument from someone else in this forum...

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The United States went in there to search and find weapons of mass destruction. They havn't found them in the process but they have took down Sadam, crippled the Al-Quada, captured hundreds of thousands of future possible terrorists, and made the world a more secure place. Why would they back out now? They have stirred up the whole hornets nest and they want the job done before they leave. They are commited to Iraq, then rebuild it and make it a semi stable place to live. For the first time women have rights, children can go to school, people have food and freedom to live how they want isntead of people going to torture chambers for disobeying these rules while having their whole family tortured infront of them and then being executed. So while violence in Iraq has escalated and it is quite bloody especially right now with the troops in the suni triangle. However, good things sometimes have to come with a price.

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The problem is that this is not just the Sunni triangle. It is southern Iraq and the Syrian Border. The Shiaa are fighting against the occupation.

 

If the Iraqis wanted us there to get rid of Saddam (big if) that is done and they want us out (at least a significant, vocal, volatile, dangerous minority of them).

 

As for the way we went there would you trust someone that broke into your home looking for guns that you could own but they said you couldn't have, didn't find the guns and decided to stay and teach you to cook and clean the way we want it done before we leave your house. I doubt it.

 

I think womens rights and freedom from torture are great things but all they have now is death squads and military attacks. From their perspective how is that different? Aren't they just as dead after wards?

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What is it about then Moon?.....WMD...Saddam...Revenge for 9/11 and not finding Bin Laden...I think we have to realise that this is...was and always will be about religion....

Not from our side, I hope, Devanski. The first politician, general, whatever, who tries to sell us the 'god on our side' goods ought to be shot on the spot. It's about the value of human life and it's a paradox that we have to kill to preserve it.

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Guest Hurdy

crippled the Al-Quada, captured hundreds of thousands of future possible terrorists,

I didn't know Al-Queda were in Iraq.... and the US hasn't captured hundreds of thousands of future terrorists - they've created them.

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AMD Dude,

 

Those are indeed a lot of very cool things, but I have to ask you how you know these things?

 

crippled the Al-Quada

It seems to me that Al Quaeda is growing in strength. The war in Iraq has done little to stem the plans of Al Quaeda. I follow the news fairly closely, where has there been an indication that Al Quaeda has been crippled from the war in Iraq?

 

captured hundreds of thousands of future possible terrorists

We only have 100K troops in Iraq at this point. I have not read this either. This is a major success story that has not made the news yet. What are we doing with all of these prisoners? Where are they? Don't get me wrong, if we have literally captured hundreds of thousands of terrorists, I have to agree that the war on Iraq is a major success. Why hasn't Bush and Rumsfeld made this a primary talking point when talking to the media? Is this the reason that you believe that Al Quaeda has been crippled?

 

made the world a more secure place

This is the point behind my thread. What measurement are you using to determine that the world is more secure? It seems that violence is escalating in Iraq and other places in the world as well. People are more entrenched. We think that Muslims are bad, and Muslims think that America is pure evil. I am worried that it is turning into a religious war with escalating. I would love to hear the news that shows how the world is more secure.

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the US hasn't captured hundreds of thousands of future terrorists - they've created them.

Part of my concerns Hurdy...You're right .....again :rolleyes:

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Guest Deuces Wild

I didn't know Al-Queda were in Iraq....

I didn't know they weren't. ;)

 

Anyway, the precedent has been set yesterday as the US used a laser guided bomb to take out a wall of a mosque that terrorists were hiding out in:

 

US marines bombed a mosque, killing up to 40 insurgents holed up inside, during an offensive in the volatile Iraqi town of Falluja yesterday, a marines officer said.

 

The attack followed several hours of small arms and rocket-propelled grenades fire from the insurgents which injured three marines, said Lieutenant Colonel Brennan Byrne.

 

He said there were as many as 40 rebels inside the mosque, adding: "We want to kill the people inside."

 

The attack on a mosque is certain to further inflame anti-US feeling across the country.

 

It came after a US general vowed to destroy the Shiite army behind the uprising that has seen American troops suffer their highest casualties since the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

 

Infuriated by the death of 12 marines in a surprise insurgency attack at Ramadi on Tuesday night, Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt promised "deliberate and precise" attacks that would "destroy" the Medhi Army, led by Moqtada al-Sadr, who is wanted on murder charges.

 

In Falluja, a stronghold of Sadr supporters, a Cobra helicopter gunship led the attack by firing a missile at the mosque and then an aircraft dropped a laser-guided precision bomb, Colonel Byrne said.

 

Residents confirmed that the Abdulaziz al-Samarai mosque was hit along with the building of the Islamic Scholars Association.

 

Colonel Byrne said the marines had carried out the raid as precisely as they could because there were people living nearby.

 

US forces have claimed that the rebels, who are fiercely opposed to the US-led occupation, are using mosques to fire on marines and to hide weapons

 

 

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/04/08/...1326808942.html

Edited by Deuces Wild

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For the first time women have rights, children can go to school, people have food and freedom to live how they want isntead of people going to torture chambers for disobeying these rules while having their whole family tortured infront of them and then being executed.

http://weekly.ahram.org.eg/2004/679/re9.htm

 

"The old civil code wasn't ideal; it was still based on Shari'a," says Yanar, an avowed secularist. "But there was a formal equality between women and men. Women had full access to education, full access to jobs and equity of salary for the same work, something that hasn't been achieved in the West. A man could take a second wife only with the approval of his first. And there was a minimum age for marriage."

Seems not all Iraqi women would agree with you amd dude.

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from your first link...

 

Although Khuzai is optimistic about the prospects for women's rights in the new Iraq, other Iraqi women, members of Congress and international civil rights groups see troubling signs.

 

The biggest fear is that the fall of Saddam's secular government has emboldened long-oppressed Shiite minorities and could give rise to Islamic extremists who view women as second-class citizens.

from your second...

 

Saddam was no defender of women, but they have faced new miseries and more violence since he fell

 

However,it is now almost a year after the war, which was supposed to bring "liberation" to Iraqis. Rather than an improvement in the quality of women's lives, what we have seen is widespread violence, and an escalation of violence against women.

 

From the start of the occupation, rape, abduction, "honour" killings and domestic violence have became daily occurrences.

Need to do better than that to convince me I am wrong ;)

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