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chengrob

Blix's Assessment Of Iraq

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I never claimed to be in Special Ops but I was taught to read I have found that a very useful pursuit. One might be surprised what one can learn if they are bright and well read. Besides you might be surprised what I have learned in my line of work.

 

If you are refuting my contention please feel free to, but don't decide what I do, where I do it or what I have done. Whether this is taught in Spec Ops or not is unrelated to my military history. That he has placed himself in a superior tactical position is surely not in dispute. Perhaps you have a suggestion for a better tactical position that he could have taken based upon your knowledge of the situation?

 

As for Special Ops taking him out while guarded by a few hundred armed men in a Mosk I rather doubt this is in their play book. But then what do I know. Perhaps you could lay out the scenario?

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Pat,

 

This article is actually contradicting the Special Ops plan. In fact, it says that we had a plan to take the guy out with Special Ops and it was nixed because we were worried about the consequences of taking out one of their religious leaders.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/07/politics/07MILI.html

 

Despite this article, my question remains. Were we now, or have we ever been, concerned about the ramifications of taking out one of their religious leaders particularly in a mosque, be it through Special Ops or not?

 

he made that mosque part of the war zone when he hid in it, if he doesn't expect us to get him in a mosque, then he'd be wrong.

I don't want to put to much creedence behind the NY Times article since it cites an unnamed person in the Defense Department, but where are you getting your information about our military policy regarding this man?

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Well whats so special about this 'religious leader' anyway?? he's just a 2 bit murderer.

 

If a preacher or priest was wanted on murder charges here in the states would we just let him go because he took up refuge in a church?? I think not,, the local swat team would go in and remove him pretty quick.

Or at the very least cut the utilities to the church and starve him out.

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if it were happening over here it would be a much easier situation to handle I agree. But its not over here.. its over there.. and surrounded by alot of angry folks who support this wierdo. So if they make the wrong moves in this sticky situation its just going to incite more riots and make the military look like the bad guys... this is a harder situation to deal with because of where it is taking place. What is going to happen if a sniper takes him out or something similar to this? More riots and attacks so ... this is not an easily handled situation because by no means should this guy get the martyr status and more people murdered to support his cause. I dont have real strategic answers here I am just offering my opinion :)

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It would be a smart move to take him out Pat...after all he is a cleric of the majority tribe in Iraq.

 

I wonder if some people realise that a coin has 2 sides? :rolleyes:

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Many major wars have been started by asassinating people of high stature and this could follow the pattern. Any little incident can spark massive backlash and the United States is not willing to sacrifice the little stability left in Iraq. I understand that he is a possible threat to the United States but even so he would be even moreso dead.

 

If the United States sovreignty was questioned and they were invaded by another countries army I am sure similar situations would occur. Only they are multiplied by Iraq being such a religous place.

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All I know is that you cannot destroy a mosque......I liked the suggestion of cutting off the utilites and starving him out.....might be a "grind" but seems to me like the best way to go, expecially considering the circumstances.

 

Or, play some loud rock music.....it drove Noriega out.... :) ......that was Noriega wasn't it....

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I better stay out of this one.

 

Can't bring myself to call a murderer a person of high stature.

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Volt,

 

I don't know this guy from Adam, but it seems that some of the Iraqis like him a lot. Enough so that many of that our military when presented with a covert plan to kill the guy, nixed the plan. The reason - fear of Iraqi backflash.

 

So you are right. In our eyes, a hero, in their eyes, a martyr.

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I think Volt hit on the only realistic solution. Surround the place, cut off supplies and wait! Killing the local version of Billy Graham is not gonna win any hearts and minds over there, although it might win a few back home. Once he is taken into 'protective' custody, start a dialogue with the guy and see if what he (and like minded fellows) is really asking for is so far fetched and unattainable.

 

Seems that maybe we should fight fire with fire. They use clerics to stoke up hatred, we should use some of the friendly clerics to counter them. I hardly see any reference to pro-coalition clerics speaking out. Time for the coalition to replace their publicists?

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Seems that maybe we should fight fire with fire. They use clerics to stoke up hatred, we should use some of the friendly clerics to counter them.

Just rang Billy's agent. He's busy. :lol:

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First I am not sure that taking out Billy Graham has close to the same impact as would taking out this cleric. Most Christians do not have near worship of a living religious leader and do not think of churches as much more than buildings. I don't know but it is my understanding that this Mosk represents more than a religious building. For Catholics this may be akin to blowing up the Vatican to kill the Pope.

 

Second, as for him being a murderer. I suspect he is but right now he is only an accused murderer. As has been said. Put yourself in their shoes. You have a strong religious belief, you have faith in a leader, a foreign power comes into your country, you don't trust the foreign country or its motives, your trusted leader says the foreign power is trying to corrupt your soul and keep you from going to heaven. Then the foreign power accuses your religious leader of murder and wants him prosecuted. If that won't incite passion what will?

 

Third, I am not sure that the Iraqis see this as murder even if they think this leader was behind it. This is a little bit like in the 1930's Chicago. When a gang boss had another gang boss killed his gang didn't say "Oh no Al Capone is a murderer. I can't support his policies anymore." I think they probably took the position that a rival was bad for business. Just as I suspect many of the faithful followers of this Cleric think that the murdered Cleric was at least a rival and probably in the pockets of Satan (the US). After all he had been in exile in the west for years and the US flew him back after the war. He was telling the Iraqis that the US is going to help. Why would they believe he hadn't been corrupted?

 

Forth, starve him out. I am sure this is an option that will be considered. But it seems to me that this siege will be as effective as the Iranian hostage crisis. I doubt they will miss electricity. Power is still not fully and reliably restored to the entire country. If the really were able to get several hundred militia and provisions into the Mosk they might be able to hold out for a year. With elections in 110 days what impact will having a respected religious leader have upon their elections? Doesn't holding out against the the great powerful Satan increase his power, prestige, and following? How long can desperate people, with adequate provisions, support of some if not most of the community hold out in a siege.

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As for using friendly Clerics. I am not sure that the Iraqi people will trust a cleric that is very supportive of the US. Besides I suspect it will be like trying to find conservative republicans that will vote for Hillary Clinton as president. I am sure there are some but not many. :)

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CD, am I right in my understanding of your post when I say that the cleric has the support of the people because of his anti coalition stance rather than his simply being a cleric in a country of religious fanatics?

 

If I'm right, then we really do have a problem as this means that he is not revered for his religious status, but rather due to his political views which are clearly more popular than we would like to, or have been led to believe. If it was a question of demanding respect and support primarily because of ones religious status, then using 'friendly' clerics would certainly have an effect also.

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For those that want a bit more incite into this young cleric.

 

Q: You've expressed pretty strong feelings about the Americans – why do you hate them so much?

 

A: Hate them? No inshallah I don't hate them. But the Americans are two parts. There is the American people, and then there is the American government. The people of America, we have no problem with, and we like them to be our friends and for us to be theirs, in good and the bad times. There are no problems there.

 

But the American government, with its co-operation with Israel, it's intent on dividing the Middle East, and Arabs and Muslims in particular. And this is a war on Muslims, as many clues attest to, such as declaring war on Afghanistan, and fighting Syria, and Iraq – all of these, what's do they have in common? One element, and that is what? Islam.

From a CBC interview on April 6th.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/iraq/al_sadr_qa.html

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Guest Deuces Wild

I am tired of people wanting to take the approach of "Please Mr. Terrorist, I give up, don't hurt me."

 

We have been hurt and this situation cannot get any worse. Let our military do what they were trained to do and that certainly is not being policemen.

 

Bring in the special ops, lob some smoke bombs into the mosque and take them. Then bring in more troops and overwhelm the militant sections with full force. Continue doing so till this mess is cleaned up.

 

This #%^*! footing around in fear of getting someone upset has not worked.

 

The heck with the Cleric being entitled to a fair trial. He is responsible for the deaths of our troops. The only trial he needs is whether to put a 45 or a 38 to his head and click away. Unfortunately, being the Country we are, we will hold him for trial.

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should we increase the ban on freedom of speech etc along with the removal of fair trials?

Edited by Sir T Fireball

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Guest fragged one

 

However, this is a war on all of terrorism as was promised since day one and it is certainly far from over.

Which "Iraqi" terrorists attacked the United States? :blink:
ramzi yousef...

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I don't know if he is respected because he is a cleric, or the son of a famous martyred cleric, or just because he is anti-American. My guess is that just like in any country it is multi determined. Some people like Bush because he is conservative, some like him because he is republican, some because he is a business man. All are reasons but the result is the same. Obviously they can be significant differences for the individual but the individual must buy into the whole package or change leaders.

 

I believe War College teaches that you cannot defeat a guerrilla style army with conventional military tactics of going in and blowing stuff up. The American revolution, Vietnam and other wars have taught this lesson. If this were an effective strategy why is Israel still fighting with Palestinians?

 

News reports this morning are that the Clerics picture is being publicly displayed in Southern Iraq. This is seen as auguring bad news since the south is presumed to be Pro-American and is of a different Muslim Sect than the Cleric holding up in a Mosk.

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Guest Hurdy

Then bring in more troops and overwhelm the militant sections with full force

The heck with the Cleric being entitled to a fair trial

The only trial he needs is whether to put a 45 or a 38 to his head and click away.

Might as well left Saddam in charge then.

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DW,

 

Check out this link.

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/07/politics/07MILI.html

 

The information is from an unnamed Dept of Defense source, but he states that we had a plan to knock out this guy a little while back and the plan was nixxed due to concerns to Muslim backlash.

 

Given the events that have occurred, are we now saying any or all of the following?

 

1. Backlash be damned, justice needs to be served, American style.

2. We should have knocked this guy off when we had the chance, and this whole damn thing could have been averted.

3. Backlash, schmacklash. We'll take care of business now, and worry about any other problems, if any, later. Time to stop pussyfooting around.

 

The reason I ask is that I am coming to a different conclusion. The events of last week *could* indicate an underlying resentment of the American occupation in *all* Iraqis. That's right I said it. All Iraqis, not just a radical sect. The last survey data is rather old. If this is the case, this just could be the tip of the iceburg, and any small event could spark a mob like contagion.

 

Personally, after seeing the footage from last week, I became afraid for our troops. There are only a little over 100K of them there now. I fully support the idea of sending more troops to Iraq immediately, before it is too late.

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I fully support the idea of sending more troops to Iraq immediately, before it is too late.

Troops from which country or organisation? I think that decision will be of paramount importance.

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Unfortunately, being the Country we are, we will hold him for trial.

If that were only true. One need only look at Gitmo Bay to see thats not always the case. Keyword hold him. Yes I agree. Trial? I suppose whenever they get around to it.

 

This is no longer considered "wartime"... that supposedly ended quite a while back. If the point of the military is to be there in the first place was to take saddam and liberate that country, then that has been accomplished. Are the military now supposed to liberate the country of its citizens too? It is running into a far more confusing situation over there about what to do.

 

One thing I am not confused about is alot of military are being killed over there and more are going to happen if this situation isn't handled the right way.

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This is much much more then one man in one Mosque.

 

When two factions of one country that have decidedly hated each other for decades join forces there is a definate problem much larger folks here have taken into consideration. These are not terrorists, these are people who's country was invaded, and while many were happy to see Hussien go, they are obviously not very happy with the "occupying" countries.

 

This will grow, it won't be sqaushed as so many believe. We are no longer fighting a dictator, we have now come to the point where we are turning our guns on the very people we claimed to have liberated. Funny thing is they want liberation from us, they want to decide the destiny of their country. I think we should let them. Let them kill each other rather then our young men and women. Let them go back to hating each other rather then giving them a common enemy.

 

One thing I learned as a small child, if to brothers are in a knock down drag out fist fight, you do not jump in the middle. The two brothers will get up, join together and kick your #%^*!, making you look like the bloody fool you were for butting in.

 

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4679155/

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Might as well left Saddam in charge then.

Thats about the conclusion I'v come to myself.

 

Way more fanatic idiots over there than I thought there were I must say.

 

When folks look up to preachers who kill other preachers to gain power,,something is all out of whack.

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