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The1PatO

Our So Called Allies...

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Time to be provocative here again I think. I have no doubt that Americans believe that what they are doing is right, and maybe they are, but it’s a game that they play badly. Terrorism is a newcomer to Uncle Sam, and they have not the faintest idea what fighting it entails, or how long it may take. Frankly, based upon the opinions brought back to UK by our service personnel, I don’t believe that the USA have the belly for it, and let’s face it, public opinion in the US changes like the weather. We have been looking for people who have been blowing the #%^*! out of us in the UK for decades without joy, so get set for the long haul Yanks. Incidentally, the US needs to stop supplying terrorists with money, weapons, and political support before it has the audacity to claim it is on the side of right. Come on US, grow up a tad.

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Dangermouse, I don't agree with you entirely. I would never suggest that the US troops don't 'have the belly for it' yet I'd agree that it has been badly handled.

 

It took us Brits a long time before we finally realised that the only chance of a solution was to sit around the same table as the bad guys and talk. However distasteful it seemed at the time, it appears to be working. Slowly, but it is working.

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This could be one, but it also could just be a US basher. Sometimes it is hard to tell them apart. ;)

I took that to mean reference to a single or particular post. Certainly the poster he was refering to does not speak for all americans.

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Guest Deuces Wild

".. arrogance and typical American naivitae..."

 

Sounds pretty general to me. ;)

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Well, that certainly is provocative!

Challenging even. Maybe even insulting.

 

Yes, you folks have been dealing with terrorism on your own soil a little longer, but not much. We have had bombings here too or haven't you been reading the news for the past 30 years? Oh, and for the most part we caught the perpetrators. Any of those atacks of yours kill a few thousand people? Yes, a few bombs here and there, or a few knee caps shot out. This is a new scale, a whole new scale.

 

 

No belly for it? I am not sure what you mean. I think we have the same belly for it as we always have. It is not a bad thing if it takes a lot to stir a people to war. But once we are there, clearly, stay out of the way.

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Time to be provocative here again I think. I have no doubt that Americans believe that what they are doing is right, and maybe they are, but it’s a game that they play badly. Terrorism is a newcomer to Uncle Sam, and they have not the faintest idea what fighting it entails, or how long it may take. Frankly, based upon the opinions brought back to UK by our service personnel, I don’t believe that the USA have the belly for it, and let’s face it, public opinion in the US changes like the weather. We have been looking for people who have been blowing the #%^*! out of us in the UK for decades without joy, so get set for the long haul Yanks. Incidentally, the US needs to stop supplying terrorists with money, weapons, and political support before it has the audacity to claim it is on the side of right. Come on US, grow up a tad.

Chopdoc....Don't agree with my fellow Brit on this one... just felt a compulsion to disassociate :beer:

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Doc I am not exagerating anything. It is my opinion just as you are welcome to yours. Call me an America hater because I don't support the President's decision on invading that country, I do not mind a bit. Feel free to come down here to Fort Campbell and tell these soldiers families exactly what it is they died for in Iraq. It wasn't Osama Bin Laden, it wasn't for to protect us from weapons of mass destruction, just what is it you can tell these soldiers families they died for?

 

The king of exageration should not point the finger at others. :)

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No insult intended I assure you Chopdoc, and I am well up on my history thanks. My opinions are based upon my own experiences and understanding of matters, and it has to be said that intelligence coming back to UK about activities in the Middle East are less than flattering. Again, don't interpret that as being disrespectful to American casualties, as our people out there are suffering as well, and cheapening that would be insufferable.

 

As for another Scot to disassociate themselves from me in front of the known world ? That's outrageous!

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Any of those atacks of yours kill a few thousand people? Yes, a few bombs here and there, or a few knee caps shot out. This is a new scale, a whole new scale.

Chopdoc. I haven't searched for links, but I think you'll find that we have had something in the region of 5000 deaths on British soil as a result of the Irish problem.

 

Please tell me more about the terrorist attacks you guys have endured over the last 30 years. I am not questioning the validity of your statement, but am simply too lazy to search :P

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As for another Scot to disassociate themselves from me in front of the known world ? That's outrageous!

Dangermouse...I can't very well jump on Deuces Wild for his beligerent, self righteous, whinging then be seen to support someone who has a way with words that is just as inflamatory...even if you are a supplanted Scot...Nothing personal...I actually like provocative but not chirlishness... :beer: Edited by Devanski

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The king of exageration should not point the finger at others. :)

I am not sure what you meant by that but I assume it is an attempt at a personal attack of some sort. What have I exagerated?

 

I believe that what you are exagerating the the affinity that supporters of the Iraq conflict have for war, I think that only a few very extreme people really want any kind of war. Is it your ipinion that anybody who supports the war in Iraq would likes it? That seemed to be what you were saying.

 

I don't have to go anywhere down there to tell anybody anything. I have family members who served and are serving. Tell them what they died for? They died because their country ordered them into combat and they pledged to follow such orders. If you mean why we were in combat, well, I thought we have all been discussing that, my comments were clear on why I feel we were there and if asked that is what I would say.

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Dangermouse...I can't very jump on Deuces Wild for his beligerent, self righteous, whinging then be seen to support someone who has a way with words that is just as inflamatory...even if you are a supplanted Scot...Nothing personal...I actually like provocative but not chirlishness... :beer:

Inflammatory? Hardly. Just exercising my right to have an opinion and airing it, in exactly the same manner as I would expect others to do and require a hearing. I do not believe that my American cousins are so genteel as to be offended by someone excessing the same freedom of speech that they themselves are so justifiably proud. If putting forward a concept that the majority of people do not subscribe to, or makes them uncomfortable, the I am guilty as charged of churlishness. That said, we are now into the second year of operations in the Middle East, and things are not improving. When something is broke, it better get fixed, and quickly before more lives are lost.

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Chopdoc. I haven't searched for links, but I think you'll find that we have had something in the region of 5000 deaths on British soil as a result of the Irish problem.

 

Please tell me more about the terrorist attacks you guys have endured over the last 30 years. I am not questioning the validity of your statement, but am simply too lazy to search  :P

I have no doubt of the scale of your losses. The the horror of our situation is the scale of a single attack. It didn't take decades, it took an instant. The terrorist attacks we have endured? Well let me start by saying that when we had our large scale internal conflict we lost 2% of out population. At least we give them the courtesy of calling it a war and not terrorism. I am speaking of our Civil War of course.

 

In more modern history the attacks have been less organized than yours and on many more fronts. Some examples include racially motivated bombings and shootings beginning in the sixties in addition to bombings and shootings motivated by people who are interested in the independence of Puerto Rico. And of course there were more. None of these were on the scale of your own Civil War er um I mean internal terrorist problem, but we have lived with this and more. Lets see. Oklahoma City? The first WTC attacks? The Olympics bombing?

 

No we didn't lose nearly as many people to one cause or movement in modern times, but we sure did lose more in one attack. I would say that one attack in addition to those we have suffered for decades due to other reasons sure goes a long wat to "catching us up" to your numbers.

Edited by Chopdoc

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Opinions generally beg responses, the more radical opinion very often invites a stronger response.

 

 

I do respect the opinions presented here.

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Chopdoc. I haven't searched for links, but I think you'll find that we have had something in the region of 5000 deaths on British soil as a result of the Irish problem.

 

Please tell me more about the terrorist attacks you guys have endured over the last 30 years. I am not questioning the validity of your statement, but am simply too lazy to search  :P

I have no doubt of the scale of your losses. The the horror of our situation is the scale of a single attack. It didn't take decades, it took an instant. The terrorist attacks we have endured? Well let me start by saying that when we had our large scale internal conflict we lost 2% of out population. At least we give them the courtesy of calling it a war and not terrorism. I am speaking of our Civil War of course.

 

In more modern history the attacks have been less organized than yours and on many more fronts. Some examples include racially motivated bombings and shootings beginning in the sixties in addition to bombings and shootings motivated by people who are interested in the independence of Puerto Rico. And of course there were more. None of these were on the scale of your own Civil War er um I mean internal terrorist problem, but we have lived with this and more. Lets see. Oklahoma City? The first WTC attacks? The Olympics bombing?

 

No we didn't lose nearly as many people to one cause or movement in modern times, but we sure did lose more in one attack. I would say that one attack in addition to those we have suffered for decades due to other reasons sure goes a long wat to "catching us up" to your numbers.

Some interesting points raised there Choppy :)

 

I noted your feelings toward the Irish problem, but do not feel inclined to be courteous to a group that throw grenades into mourners attending a funeral or carry out such atrocities as the Omagh bombing. As I have stated in other threads where the IRA topic has surfaced, I sympathise with their cause, but not their means. With regards to your civil war, a reason for calling it a civil war and not a terrorist uprising was probably something to do with the fact that it was carried out, in the main, by two distinct armies in uniform and on battlefields.

 

Apart from 9/11 I wouldn't say you have had to endure anything like the threat of terrorism that we have in the UK. I hope this hasn't sounded like a pissin contest. Just swapping thoughts with you and learning through the experience ;)

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Actually I am fairly neutral on the Irish conflict, but my point was that many people can see it that way. I sympathize with your situation in the UK, really I do.

Edited by Chopdoc

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Actually I am fairly neutral on the Irish conflict, but my point was that many people can see it that way. I sympathize with your situation in the UK, really I do.

Thank you for your empathy, but we seem to be making some headway at long last :)

 

I don't see how the current terrorist problem will ever be solved :mrsgreen: However, I certainly do not think it will be resolved by force and believe the solution (if we ever find one) will involve 30% yakking and 70% listening. ;)

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No no pissin contest. :lol:

 

We have suffered differently on both sides but nobody has had the luxury of being without tragedy.

 

Yeah, the uniforms and stuff do kind of set our war apart. But there are those who look at the IRA that way, it is a matter of perspective. It isn't my perspective though.

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Thank you for your empathy, but we seem to be making some headway at long last :)

 

 

There have been many false starts, I hope there is continued success in current efforts.

 

Personally I think the solution to any terrorist problem is case specific and that in some cases it is necessary to meet it with violence. Which cases that might be is the hard thing to see.

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I hear ya. It's a difficult thing to differentiate between terrorism and justified acts of violence at times. Like you say and I have stated many times before, one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Someone is always gonna be :filtered: at someone else in this old world of ours. The outcome can be bloody and murderous at times. As we have learned from recent events, how we react can have even worse consequences than the initial act itself.

 

edit:

Personally I think the solution to any terrorist problem is case specific and that in some cases it is necessary to meet it with violence. Which cases that might be is the hard thing to see.  

 

Especially when you are at the centre of it. Hence the need for an organisation such as the UN.

 

What's the name of that little hammer thing you doc's use to tap someone below the knee and make it jerk called again? :P

Edited by Sir T Fireball

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So it was you who said that! I thought so. I always try to keep that sort of thing in mind, try to maintain objectivity. Try anyway.

 

 

 

A reflex hammer? That is what we call it in the US I forget what the Brits called it. They found our term humorous if I remember correctly. Something about it sounding brutal.

 

Edit: Point well taken! :lol:

Edited by Chopdoc

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Maybe it wasn't the name but our choice of instrument they found odd.

 

The brits don't favor the Taylor Percussion Hammer we Americans favor.

 

http://www.safetystore.com/hammer.asp

 

 

Edit: The Brits like the Babinski or Queen's Suare. I came to like the Brit way, I still have the one I bought there.

Edited by Chopdoc

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