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moon

Iraq

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Yesterday it was Iraqi police recruits, today it's Iraqi army recruits.

Today's atrocity.

 

In the confusion, al-Qaedar are spreading rumours that it was American warplanes which blew up the recruits yesterday and today. Iraq is still a war zone. Fight or quit ?

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Abandonment or long-term support?

 

I'm dazzled to even conceive of such a choice.

 

Support ? I suppose if you imagine it upon the deck of an aircraft carrier with three-squares and a bevy of F-16's at your back it might be plausible.

 

And abandonment ? How can someone who's never been noticed in the first place, except as a pesky annoyance, be abandoned?

 

I

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I hear a rumor that a man is beating his wife, so I break into the man's house, and kill the man, then I tell his wife and three kids that I am not leaving until they start acting like a family again. Many of the neighbors are upset with the murder and they've managed to turn off the electricity and the gas. The wife pleads that he never beat her, and I reply it doesn't matter because he cheated on his taxes. The house has no nearby police station but they have a neighborhood watch, so I guess the question is what it would take for me to leave?

 

Based on this analogy, I think there are three ways that we could leave Iraq.

 

1. We can restore order and create a democracy to our liking there. I am certainly no expert, but this does not seem very likely. The end of hostilities was the beginning of May, over 8 months ago. To be honest, it seems that we are no closer to restoring order than 8 months ago. I would love someone to prove me wrong on this one. Even if there were order, it is really unclear to me how well a democracy will work in Iraq. I know that we have a model of post war Germany, but I fail to see the parallels. Again, I am no expert, but it does not seem that any of these goals are going to happen any time soon.

 

2. The international community becomes outraged and demands a US withdrawal. This is a possibility, but there has to be clear evidence that #1 is not happening. So this could potentially happen after a couple of year(s) of the US muddling around in Iraq.

 

3. The American people demand that we get out of Iraq. Independent of one's view of entering the war, many people that opposed the war feel a responsibility to fix what we have broke. The opposite side of the coin is that the economy is being propped up by toothpicks and is amazingly sluggish for an election year. If Bush loses the election, there is a decent chance that a Democratic president could pull out and damn the consequences and just blame anything bad on Bush. It will be interesting to see if an Iraqi withdrawal becomes an election issue in the late summer. In July, after the democratic convention, whomever the democratic nominee, I would run over to Iraq immediately with a ton of press. Certainly more than Hillary had.

 

Speaking of intelligence, we're focusing on WMD, but what about:

1. The tie between Saddam and 9/11, which one poll indicated 1/2 of Americans believe exist.

2. The fact that we thought that we would be welcome with open arms, once the Iraqi's knew the liberators had come to save them. Remember that one?

3. That we grossly underestimated the cost of this war. Remember $78M in April, and then a request for another $150B in September. Correct my numbers if they are not right.

 

Eegad, I am rambling.

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Rob,

 

You left out #4 : Get the f#@k out.

 

I

 

Let me tell you why America will never leave the Middle East. It's only contemporaneously about oil.

 

Take the long view:

 

Russia has not been extinguished. It still can be a threat should it establish a warm-water port and it's most natural warm-water port lies within Iraqi jurisdiction.

 

Meanwhile, China hastens to establish a Western shorefront.

 

And remember: China and Russia are uneasy historical allies, willing to sacrifice each other for perceived short-term gains.

 

So, to play China against Russia, the United States of America comes up the middle playing a bit of Iraq to each, which under the circumstances they're both only to glad to accept. The East has always been preternaturallly Maoist while the West naturally gravitatates toward Marxism. Thus, the US savages each of their supposed ally's chances of gaining a geographical advantantage by playing them against their mutual weaknesses.

 

I

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I hear a rumor that a man is beating his wife, so I break into the man's house, and kill the man, then I tell his wife and three kids that I am not leaving until they start acting like a family again. Many of the neighbors are upset with the murder and they've managed to turn off the electricity and the gas. The wife pleads that he never beat her, and I reply it doesn't matter because he cheated on his taxes. The house has no nearby police station but they have a neighborhood watch, so I guess the question is what it would take for me to leave?

An excellent analogy. If the murdered man were my brother, I and my surviving brothers would hunt you down and kill you by whatever means and at whatever cost to ourselves. Our rage and need for revenge would be blinding. In our efforts to get to you, we would not care one jot about who else gets hurt in the process. If we couldn't get to you, we'd get those who are important to you.

 

Blimey!!! just thinking about the subject and typing this has got my blood boiling. I can't begin to imagine the true anger/hatred felt by those who have had family and friends killed by the Western axis of evil.

 

I'm going for a lay down now...........................

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I'm going for a lay down now...........................

Best thing I'v seen you type in 2 weeks.

 

 

 

 

We are going to be there till were done. it won't matter if the dems or bush are in office in 2005,, we started this thing and we need to finish it. faulty CIA/MI5 intelligence be damned. ;) v

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An excellent analogy

You should stop thinking like one of the relatively few Iraqis who have been injured by the coalition and start thinking like the families of the 400,000 who were murdered by Saddam. How come this statistic is always glossed over to create an illusory Iraq in which the West isn't welcome ? There are currently 45,000 new Iraqi policemen and policewomen and another 1,000 undergoing training at any given time. Their indigenous culture deserves a chance to flourish free of the Fundamentalist and Ba'athist monsters. It would be abandonment to pull out before their society is stabilised, there is no other word for it. The US abandoned them in '91, to everybody's regret. Surely they're not thinking of doing it again ? How shallow does the learning curve have to be before we all take part in the war against terrorists with a will ?

 

Aye to that, V.

Edited by moon

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Out now!

 

Let the UN clean up the mess made by the inept Western axis of evil. The whole shebang was a monumental balls-up from day 1.

 

edit: While the UK might have some sort of moral argument for regime change, the USA certainly does not. The hypocrisy is enough to enrage a nun! You think state sanctioned execution is good or bad? I think it is only carried out by countries that are morally corrupt. What is an acceptible number to you Moon; 10 or 100, 100 or 1000 ?

 

The main moralist in this sorry saga, the USA, is in no position to get all indignant on human rights violations in Iraq....

 

More than 3 countries a year, on average, have abolished the death penalty for all crimes in the last decade -- A United Nations survey of research findings, conducted in 1988 and updated in 1996, found no evidence of the death penalty being a more effective deterrent than other penalties -- Canada abolished the death penalty in 1976, and Canada's murder rate dropped 43% in 24 years, from 3.09 in 1975 to 1.76 in 1999 -- The only countries which execute as many people as the United States in a year are China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Congo (all dictatorships) -- Since 1990, the United States has executed more people who were under 18 at the time of their offense than any other country in the world (as far is as known to AI)

 

http://davecoop.net/adp.htm

America keeps good company eh?

The local butcher espousing the virtues of vegetarianism kinda has a hollow ring to it :angry:

Edited by Sir T Fireball

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Would be nice if the UN actually did something. They're about as worthless as the CIA's intelligence.

The UN refusing to be led into a conflict by a bunch of wallies does not make them worthless. If anything, it shows excellent judgement ;)

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The UN refusing to be led into a conflict by a bunch of wallies does not make them worthless. If anything, it shows excellent judgement ;)

The UN shoud've done something to prevent the conflict. I know they don't want to step on the toes of the US and UK but the UN has responsibilities to make sure things like that don't happen, especially from one of the founding members.

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This isn't a cultural comparison. Please stick to the topic, if you can. :lol: It's about an issue upon which the US elections will almost certainly swing. Fight or quit ?

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The UN shoud've done something to prevent the conflict. I know they don't want to step on the toes of the US and UK but the UN has responsibilities to make sure things like that don't happen, especially from one of the founding members.

Henry, have you any suggestions as to what they might have done to prevent this farce? The whole thing was pre-meditated and a fait accomplis long before 9/11. America would have gone alone if they had to. They showed total contempt for the UN.

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It's about an issue upon which the US elections will almost certainly swing. Fight or quit ?

It will certainly be a factor in the election, but I will have fun watching them differentiate their policies on future actions in Iraq, as opposed to lamenting and criticizing the stupid blunders that got us there.

 

As far I can tell, neither party supports immediate withdrawal. Both parties support an increased role for the UN. Both support self-rule for Iraq, and training for an Iraqi security force. So what's the difference as far as Iraq goes? I doubt there will be much. Even if the Dems publicly advocate something slightly different from current policy, for example a more aggressive withdrawal schedule, they will have a hard time sticking to that promise if elected.

 

The main benefit I can see to electing a Democrat would be to rebuild relationships with "old Europe" as Rumsfeld likes to call it. A change of the guard would allow the new administration to make some moves that would be embarassing for Bush to make at this point.

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Henry, have you any suggestions as to what they might have done to prevent this farce? The whole thing was pre-meditated and a fait accomplis long before 9/11. America would have gone alone if they had to. They showed total contempt for the UN.

I wouldn't really know what to do. That's their job not mine.

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As far I can tell, neither party supports immediate withdrawal

Thanks for the inside view, dave. Over here it's ' Republicans will stay, Democrats will quit'.

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An excellent analogy.  If the murdered man were my brother, I and my surviving brothers would hunt you down and kill you by whatever means and at whatever cost to ourselves.  Our rage and need for revenge would be blinding. In our efforts to get to you, we would not care one jot about who else gets hurt in the process. If we couldn't get to you, we'd get those who are important to you.

 

Blimey!!! just thinking about the subject and typing this has got my blood boiling. I can't begin to imagine the true anger/hatred felt by those who have had family and friends killed by the Western axis of evil.

 

I'm going for a lay down now...........................

IMHO -

 

I think a better interpretation of this analogy would be If you was the wife's brother. The Iraqi people are more closely tied to the Murdered (The Iraqi people) and not the Murderer (Sadaam)

 

If you saw a fight between a very big guy and someone who could not defend themself very well and you had the ability to stop it.... would you? Or would you look the other way? The fight has nothing to do with you and you do not know either party personally.

 

I would be proud of anyone that stands up to a bully if they have the means. I can not imagine that the people who were getting picked on & the families of the people who were getting picked on would turn to me and say "leave me alone"

 

For the record, I would try to help anyone in distress if I felt I could help and I am proud of my country for the same reason. We have paid a terrible price for our involvement and criticism around the world but in my opinion we stopped a person who in time would have made 9-11 look like a picnic. (That is not the reason we went in but a damn good reason to be proud).

 

I also would not leave a person in need until I thought they could provide for themselves. For this reason, I would vote to stay.

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I also would not leave a person in need until I thought they could provide for themselves. For this reason, I would vote to stay.

Nice sentiments hftmrock - assuming you are actually helping the situation and not making matters much worse by getting involved. I believe the global repercussions of this evil attack on a sovereign country will be long lasting and far reaching. As more of the lies told to justify the invasion come to light with each day passing, the number of West haters will grow substantially. Not without jusification either. IMHO

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