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Angela

Just An Observation From Your Typical Girl....

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When people "fight" (disagree even) there is a strong tendency to call on their friends to stand by them and support them in their fight. And when they make a choice not to do so we tend to be hurt by that choice and to shun them. If they chose to stand by us and make our fight their fight then they are great and loyal friends. The more emotional a fight or disagreement is the more extreme our reaction.

 

This is no more and no less than the same thing kids in a schoolyard will do.

 

The basic shape of this that I have described disgusts me beyond words. If someone is truly your friend you will respect their absolute right to decide for themselves what they think is right and wrong. And NOT base your friendship with them on their choices in that regard. It is called respect.

 

This is how we (read that TYPICAL ARROGANT AMERICANS) have treated the French people as if they were in the schoolyard and we were the bully picking a fight.

 

Except for where one is honoring an agreement or a legal requirement to do so there is nothing under the face of our sun that dictates or demands that a person (or a sovereign nation) support another in any fight they may choose to start. This is called FREEDOM. You know "Freedom" that thing, that concept, that we Americans hold so dear and fight so dearly to death for.

 

Are you in your opinion, actions, and words taking the right to freedom away from another person? Think about it.

Couldn't have said it better :tup:

 

i'll second that :tup:

 

i scrolled back and see my point about respect somehow got turned around...thank you oftentired and though you may be often tired....you are also often right on point :mrgreen:

I fully agree.

 

I would like to add that if Britain had taken a similar attitude before the US entered WWII I would think we would have been less inclined to enter on their side. As it was we entered on the side of England because Japan had attacked the US not because we wanted to be an allie or aout oif any moral righteousness.

Looks like I'm forthing it. ;)

 

I have often thanked Japan for bombing Pearl Harbour. Had they not, I'd be speaking Japaneze.

 

And, finally, unfortunately, Yanks do seem to take themselves a little too seriously sometimes. Andrew made the point earlier that we can't comprehend 9/11, and I'm not about to defend anyone, but it is something that has got to be learned from, but not something to totally overtake your life, or that of a country. Any country.

 

Politics and religion, never the twain shall meet, nor is it a trip I'm willing to make.

 

 

 

:huh:

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what rights are being lost??*  :huh:

 

 

 

 

 

*not being a SA

http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/cover.html

 

aaahhhhhh, THOSE rights :rolleyes: those 4th amendment rights have been trampled upon long before 911. i was thinking in a different direction, more toward what i'd posted earlier about being able to go to sleep without fear of sirens going off in the night and shouldn't have been.

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I have now lived in two countries in my life outside of the USA. Ireland and Brazil. I have also traveled to the following countries, Canada, Dominican Republic, Venezuela, Colombia, Chile, Argentina, Urugay, Guatemala, Mexico, UK, France, Netherlands, Italy, Austria, Germany, Sweden, Japan, Australia, Hong Kong, Thailand, and Singapore. I am sure I left a few out. But my favorite country in the whole world is the USA. I love the USA, and I love being an American.

 

Also, I think that we all can agree that 9/11 was one of the most appalling and disgusting debacles of the last 100 years. There was world wide agreement, and I along with the rest of the world, cheered with all my heart as we attacked Afghanistan and had Osama on the run. I wish to God we had captured or killed Osama. All was not lost because we captured a lot of intelligence about Al Quaeda and its operations, but I really wish we had captured Osama. More importantly, we had worldwide support for this war. As a matter of fact, I believe we still do.

 

On the topic of Iraq, I believe it is fair to say that America's war in Iraq has severely divided the world community. Where we once had unity regarding 9/11, we now have an extremely divided world. I view that as a bad thing. Furthermore, the UK people seem to growing tired of its participation in the war. Lastly, even the America public appears to becoming divided on this war.

 

Why is there all of this anti American sentiment? America is the victim of 9/11, right? After reading through this thread, it appears that the central division is around this fact. America justifies its invasion of Iraq through the 'prism' of 9/11. As time goes on, more and more people are finding this justification lacking. Unlike Afghanistan where the ties are clear, there appears to be close to no ties between Iraq and 9/11. Even if there are ties between Iraq and Al Quaeda, why not go after Al Quaeda directly?

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what rights are being lost??*  :huh:

 

 

 

 

 

*not being a SA

http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/cover.html
I don't belive you have lost any rights to do these things.

I think they are checking to see if you're doing anything to

hurt or destroy America.

If you haven't, no harm done. If you have (good by)

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it really would be so much more convenient for all concerned if the Al Quaeda had there own country to hang out in. or at least more cognizant of all the derisiveness they've caused and have the courtesy to stay put long enough to hone in on 'em and blast em all :mrgreen:

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I have often thanked Japan for bombing Pearl Harbour. Had they not, I'd be speaking Japaneze.

 

 

What a pathetic statement....and it's 'Japanese'.

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what rights are being lost??*  :huh:

 

 

 

 

 

*not being a SA

http://www.amconmag.com/05_19_03/cover.html
I don't belive you have lost any rights to do these things.

I think they are checking to see if you're doing anything to

hurt or destroy America.

If you haven't, no harm done. If you have (good by)

 

"good bye" is right..... ;)

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I'm sure this will get me some flames, but I don't care.

I am sick and tired of hearing about how terrible 9/11/2001 was. Get over it already.

 

And this "God Bless the US" makes me rail too.

 

Yes, I'm happy to be American...

 

Not deserving of a reply other than....pathetic. :mrsgreen:

I cannot find the words to express how bad that #%^*! :filtered: me off. :angry:

 

Other countries do suffer terrorists attacks, sure, and they are just as bad, if not worse in some cases, but dont you dare tell me to get over it. Im so #%^*! sick to death of hearing that? 2000 people are dead, children are orphaned, pregnant women jumped to their death, widows are left to raise kids without their spouse, firefighters, police officers, EMT's (I have a particular soft spot to EMT's--id be dead if not for them) died trying to save American lives..... BUT WAIT.... not just Americans, they died trying to save British, Chinesse, Russians, Irish, Arabs, Scottish, Australians, etc.

 

They went in there to save YOUR people too. Now that makes all the nay sayers pretty damn ungreatful in my book.

 

And just to clear it up, I dont hate all French people, but I am pretty damn prejudice toward them right now, and at least I have the guts to say it. Ya'll (general term, meant toward no one specific, if the shoe fits, wear it) run around "OH GWB is the anti Christ, waaaaaaaa, Im a big titty baby, he is not fair. pout pout pout" and what most of you won't say is..... "I hate America, Americans, and I hate your President too." which loosely translates into "WERE JEALOUS" and you should be. We kick #%^*!, we know it, and we are the luckiest damn people alive.

 

Get over 9-11? Are you #%^*! serious? How do you sleep at night?

 

I get told that all the time in regards to my crash, and it is easily the most demeaning, insulting, hurtful, ignorant thing anyone says to me. The same feeling apply to me as an American when it is used in regards to 9-11. Get over it? How? We have a whole nation running around with a big #%^*! case of PTSD, our suicide rate has jumped, you've got liberals who have totally forgotten what unity means, but they all voted, but one, to go to war in Iraq. What a bunch of spineless #%^*!, vote to go, then #%^*! about it. 9-11 has EVERYTHING to do with Iraq. The United States is no longer gonna wait for you to come to us, if your out there, your standing in line, and eventually your numbers gonna get called. Comply or face the consequences, and thats the way it should be. Dont like it? Tough. Do you shoot your rapist in the back when hes done raping you, or shoot his #%^*! before he gets his pants down? I shoot first, and my country should too.

 

So dont tell me how normal 9-11 was, or how it should not bother me cause other places get attack by terrorists too. #%^*! you. If you live in a country suffering terrorists attacks, go get your leaders to find their balls and do something about it. Eliminate them. Take a stand. DONT TOLERATE IT.

 

And in my opinion if you live in America and you dont like the way things are being done..... GET OUT. or vote, dont sit on your lazy #%^*! and moan about all your problems with our government. VOTE. And bring it on, we are gonna get re-elected, and we are gonna go get the next set of bad guys.

 

But if you can't do that..... GET OUT. What are you waiting for?

 

Angela :angry:

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And just to clear it up, I dont hate all French people, but I am pretty damn prejudice toward them right now, and at least I have the guts to say it. Ya'll (general term, meant toward no one specific, if the shoe fits, wear it) run around "OH GWB is the anti Christ, waaaaaaaa, Im a big titty baby, he is not fair. pout pout pout" and what most of you won't say is..... "I hate America, Americans, and I hate your President too." which loosely translates into "WERE JEALOUS" and you should be. We kick #%^*!, we know it, and we are the luckiest damn people alive.

 

What a pile of horse dung!

 

9-11 has EVERYTHING to do with Iraq. The United States is no longer gonna wait for you to come to us, if your out there, your standing in line, and eventually your numbers gonna get called.

How is Iraq connected to 9/11?

 

And in my opinion if you live in America and you dont like the way things are being done..... GET OUT. or vote, dont sit on your lazy #%^*! and moan about all your problems with our government. VOTE. And bring it on, we are gonna get re-elected, and we are gonna go get the next set of bad guys.

So folks can't vote AND moan?

 

..........................................................

 

Furthermore, the UK people seem to growing tired of its participation in the war.

The greater majority of us were never for it. If America's gas problem is so bad that they have to rape another country for theirs, get the car manufacturers to provide more economical engines.

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Everyone is proud to some extent of their country or why else would you stay there?

 

BUT some countrys are so up themselves bragging at what they have and what they did but the big thing they forget is how they got there and who helped them. Because your country is big in size doesn't make it greater in any way shape or form so when something like 9-11 happens yes its disasterous but would you feel so strongly if it was someone elses country. I know forr a fact when 9-11 happened the uk fell still we donated money and held charity events to raise cash for those affected we didn't have to but we did!. I ask you would you have done it for us , i don't think you would as your so big and have everything there. You need to think that things do happen but are we still moping around and causing disputes over worlds war 1 or 2 nope i don't think we are, it was a tragic thing that happened that day but think of other countries and other ways people are killed all because of these disputes. I think your trying to make yourself feel better but are offending alot of other people in the process.

 

P.s Bush and Blair need ********

Edited by savannah23

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To the best of my recollection of history there was dissent among the founding fathers of the US. I am not sure that they were ever offered the position of "get out" if they did not approve of the the decisions.

 

I acknowledge that the number of people that vote in the US is appallingly small but there is no reason to think that those who can vote and who are oposed to the current administration and its policies don't vote and aren't politically active.

 

I know that it may come as a shock to the conservative republicans but those credentials are not necessary to love america. Nor are they currently required to live in america.

 

I find it increasingly hard to distinguish between a political movement that believes that there is one true God, that they know the will of that God and that anyone in opposition is wrong and deserves to die. The other political movement believes that there is one true God, that they know the will of that God and that anyone in opposition is wrong and should leave the country or should not be allowed an opposition voice.

 

I would point out that movements based upon blind faith and loyalty do not have the best track record. Hitler's Germany, Tojo's Japan, Stalinist Soviet Union, Castro's Cuba, Jonestown etc. These are, of course, only some of the modern examples.

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The US does care about other countries and is supportive of other countries. As a country we give more in food and monetary aid than any other nation. I think we would have helped if this attack had taken place in Britain, Germany or France. I believe we offered aid to Indonesia in response to the terrorist attack. But your other points are well taken.

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I believe we offered aid to Indonesia in response to the terrorist attack.

:lol: No ulterior motives mixed in with the good will then :rolleyes:

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Guest Deuces Wild

Because your country is big in size doesn't make it greater in any way shape or form so when something like 9-11 happens yes its disasterous but would you feel so strongly if it was someone elses country.

Size does not matter. Just look at the old USSR. And the USA is not as large in size as Canada, China or South Africa either. If size was the determining factor, South Africa would be the worlds super power.

 

Like it or not we are the only world super power. With that comes tremendous responsibility and a moral obligation to ensure peace and stability in the world as best we can. Sometimes that mean diplomacy, sometimes armed conflict.

 

And to answer your last question,yes, most people in the US take terrorist attacks on other countries to heart. Why would you think otherwise?

Edited by Deuces Wild

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I don't think "get over it" per se. I think go foreward, go on. Don't live in the past. A lot of things have happended to ppl. you can't continue to to live in the past you have to foreward and learn from the past.

 

You have ppl. everyday saying oh well I commited this crime because of what happended to me when I was younger. Or we have to hate this person forever, because of what happened way back when.

 

My mom was German, and I remember being almost embrassed to admit that when we we studying about Hitler. I was born in France, and I didn't want to say that to anyone here recently. Because of the attitude of what I've read here today.

 

Remember it YES!! Let if never happen again? Again YES, never again!!

Go on with your life...... YES. Learn and go on.

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Guest Deuces Wild

We will not ever forget 9-11.

 

Move on? Yes, we are doing that nicely, especially moving on and eliminating terrorists and terrorist threats so it does not happen again.

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We will not ever forget 9-11.

 

Move on? Yes, we are doing that nicely, especially moving on and eliminating terrorists and terrorist threats so it does not happen again.

Probably creating more than you/we are eliminating :mrsgreen:

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Sir T...I would never take on the task of trying to dissuade you from your firmly held notions or attempt to point out inconsistencies in your well thought out perspective but, I do submit this as fodder for your consideration...

 

You and I both agree that Saddam was a terrorist (right?) The fact that he inflicted his particular atrocities on his own people

and for his own benefit does not change this "fact". You have accused the US, on many occasions, of a self sighted foreign policy and a conceited world view....the implication here being that we should broaden our perspective to be more inclusive.

Both of our countries presidents vowed to take on terrorist wherever they exist...all terrorist, not just those that could be linked to a particular act of terror in either of our countries. Isn't that what is going on in Iraq? The fact that it is a popular

view that Saddam was not directly linked to the Sept 11th terror act does not change the construct of the anti terrorism campaign...right? Is there not, at the very least, some morally tangential connection?

 

"War on terrorism" is not just some catchy political phrase...it is a commitment of at least one country that is, for the most part, in accord as to the justification...it was known when the commitment was made, that there would be hardships...that it may traverse boarders and may involve an enemy unlike any that we have taken on in the past...that it would take many years and would change the world as we know it. The "self sighted" approach to world wide terrorism would have us pull in, close our embassies, throw up a wall around our country, stop foreign aid, focus our resources on ourselves and let the rest of the world fend for themselves...it would definitely not call for taking on a potentially un-winnable task that, by nature, will become less popular as time goes on. This commitment has been made and it will require much sacrifice and, most of all, much patience.

 

The only question becomes do you believe in the war on terror? That is not to imply that a dissenting opinion is totally without merit but it is imperative to answer this fundamental question to provide the framework for ones arguments.

 

How is Iraq connected to 9/11?

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Publ...03/378fmxyz.asp

 

Here is a link to the much publicized Weekly Standard article that suggest a very real connection between Saddam and Al-Qaede. I will await more evidence before I form an opinion as to the connection but the point is that your question has not yet been answered. It is very possible that in time, the connection will be irrefutable as it is possible that the whole WMD issue may be revealed. Either way, contempt before investigation is foolish. ( general statement, not a poke)

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well, im not going to even try and get into a personal debate over this subject, but my honest opinion, is that GWB, should have ordered the troops to make Iraq a distant memory

I think if we had went over there, and just completely wiped that country off the face of the map, and maybe named the hole in the earth that was left ,Terrorisms End, that the war on terrorism would have been far more succesful. But I see it as we didnt kill Saddam, but the point was delivered, had i been the one dropping orders to the troops then operation Shock and Awe , would have ended the war, because i would have sank the entire middle east, at least the countries that have terrorism ties anyway. And we would have a brand new ocean. But thats just me.

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Lava that is an intersting article but since it is dated in the future and I am not firmly convinced that time travel is possible do you think you could find something in the past or perhaps wait until after the 24th to post it? "From the November 24, 2003 issue: The U.S. government's secret memo detailing cooperation between Saddam Hussein and Osama bin Laden.

by Stephen F. Hayes

11/24/2003, Volume 009, Issue 11 " :lol:

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Just a small point in relation to 9/11.

The IRA have killed as many families, in bombing pubs and shopping centres, over the years ,as the number that were killed just as indiscriminately in the twin towers .

 

Yet fund raising was actively supported by your "Irish Americans" and even glad-handed into the White house , (Nothing to do with the Irish American vote and funds needed for influence, to get into the chair where the buck supposedly stops ......I guess.....?)

 

9/11 did change your attitude to terrorism , which was one of the major reasons which brought the IRA to the table as the funds dried up ...... But its an awful thing to happen to make you realise what terrorism is about .

 

If all Iraq had to export was dates and camels , we would not be having this discussion ...!

 

I don't think that the French and US governments are not all that too dissimilar , you have a foreign policy based wholly on self interest .

Edited by Tankus

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