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To All U. K. Smokers Your Freedom By Nick Clegg


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You do not have to go into a bar room that allows smoking.

 

 

for the record Bruce, I posted that when El Tel posted his beliefs that second hand smoke was not dangerous and its all a myth.

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I personally won't dispute that it has the possibility of being harmful.

 

But then in a country where 60% of the population is overweight, and 30% is obese, with diabetes and heart problems at an all time high as a result, I simply see it as another choice. Some people choose to drink too much, some choose to stuff their faces to no end, and some choose to smoke, and yes all of them have an effect on others with alcohol related illness, crime, violence, child abuse.......topping the chart.

 

The difference with allowing bars and pubs to allow smoking if they so choose, is that people will have a choice whether they want to frequent a smoking or non-smoking establishment.

 

I do not propose and wouldn't propose a total repeal of smoking bans.

 

I only propose that privately owned establishments be allowed to do it, and that they clearly post signs stating that smoking is allowed inside.

 

Many would remain non-smoking and some would choose to allow it.

 

Then people make the choice on which they choose to patronize, smoking or non-smoking. It is a rational and perfectly acceptable proposal.

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Many would remain non-smoking and some would choose to allow it.

 

.

 

 

I wasnt going to post anymore feeling its run its course but I have to ask....

 

When I was a kid, all private businesses had the choice and 99% of them allowed smoking...

 

what makes you believe that many would remain non smoking now? Here is where we differ. I believe most would allow it since smokers would be happy and lots of people would just grin and bear it if they are non smokers. According to some, it was more profitable when they allowed smoking. why would they make their business non smoking if it would be more profitable to allow it?

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If I owned a business I would certainly allow it. I have seen many suffer, and some downright have to close down as a result.

 

Simply isn't fair to the business owner nor the people who would have otherwise gone there.

 

Now that said, no one is twisting your arm to go to these places, just like no one twisted the arms of smokers to go there when they could no longer smoke there. ;)

 

See how it works, it's a brilliant concept really that choice thing.

 

The smokers chose not to go when they could no longer smoke there.

 

Are you somehow forced to go if if you choose not to?

 

Better yet start your own non-smoking bar room, to serve the non-smokers.

Edited by Bruce
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so your 'freedom' simply means....

 

I can no longer go to bars anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to bowling alleys anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to clubs anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go on a plane anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to a supermarket if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go out to dinner if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to museums if I dont want to risk cancer

My choices of where to work is SEVERELY limited if I dont want to risk cancer

I can not go to malls if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to concerts or any stadium events if I dont want to risk cancer

 

 

...

 

this is the choices I had when I was a kid and didnt know better. So now I need to stay home or only go to public places for the rest of my life or risk getting cancer and dying...

 

 

... sorry Bruce.. I have to agree to disagree. While this might be seen as a loss of freedom and I see the point.. Lives are saved and no one has to risk getting cancer and dying with this.

A smoker can go anywhere now without any risk of anyone poisoning him/her.

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Hi

 

Wow you guys get so far off base Posted Image

I couldn't agree more, and admit I have allowed myself to get a little sidetracked. As in my opening topic, with a link to our "Your Freedom" this discussion is about your "Freedom Of Choice" when this Ex Labour Party left us with this draconium "Smoking Ban".

 

 

Regards

El Tel

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so your 'freedom' simply means....

 

I can no longer go to bars anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to bowling alleys anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to clubs anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go on a plane anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to a supermarket if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go out to dinner if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to museums if I dont want to risk cancer

My choices of where to work is SEVERELY limited if I dont want to risk cancer

I can not go to malls if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to concerts or any stadium events if I dont want to risk cancer

 

 

...

 

this is the choices I had when I was a kid and didnt know better. So now I need to stay home or only go to public places for the rest of my life or risk getting cancer and dying...

 

 

... sorry Bruce.. I have to agree to disagree. While this might be seen as a loss of freedom and I see the point.. Lives are saved and no one has to risk getting cancer and dying with this.

A smoker can go anywhere now without any risk of anyone poisoning him/her.

 

Again show me where I said anything other then bar or pub.

Edited by Bruce
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Well private businesses should be able to. But I have for the most part been sticking to bars and pubs because they are adult establishments where adults can make the decision.

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Hi

 

I can't see where you are coming from, this is far from what smokers are saying. Not one smoker wants to limit a non smoker on his choice of work or where he/she finds their recreation.

 

so if that law was removed.

 

so I cant work in most places now because they allow smoking in offices and restaurants and anywhere indoors.

 

I cant go to ANY restaurants because they allow smoking

 

Cant go on subways

 

Cant go on planes

 

Cant go in supermarkets

 

Cant go to any social gatherings (pubs, bowing, arcades, clubs)

 

Cant go on busses

 

Basically I could not go to any public place indoors if I dont want to risk cancer.

 

 

Yeah.. your right Bruce.. If I dont want cancer, I can just stay home... thanks.

 

and while there are many cancers and you dont have to smoke to get it.. what is proven is you can get it if you breath in cigarette smoke.

 

 

I think I will stop at this point.. as I said before I do understand the point of freedom and smoking.. I just think its WAY too high a price to pay and in this situation (Like drinking and driving)I am in favor of the law... I dont think going back and forth like this at this point will clarify any position.

 

(and I think it is a great thread and a great discussion)

 

All we smokers want is the "Freedom Of Choice"

 

 

 

You will have to show me where I proposed such a thing. I havn't, not once in this thread.

 

In fact just the opposite.

 

I previously said I certainly don't have a problem banning smoking in "public places".

 

Private bars and pubs are not publicly owned, nor publicly financed, they privately owned.

 

Public transportation systems, and publicly owned buildings are far different from privately owned businesses.

 

As for attending gatherings at bars and clubs, well if your friends would choose to have a gathering at a smoking establishment, I guess you would have to decide what you wanted to do, much the same way you would if a friend who smoked in his house asked you over for a party.

 

Spot on this, it is your "Freedom Of Choice"

 

 

 

Pretty similar over here actually. You don't need to go into a pub that doesn't allow smoking. You can however stand outside until you've finished.

 

If you are referring to smokers, why should they be ostracised out in the cold in winter. We want our choice as well and all we are asking for is a separate facility inside so we can enjoy our pint in a well ventilated room away from non smoker.

 

 

 

so your 'freedom' simply means....

 

I can no longer go to bars anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to bowling alleys anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to clubs anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go on a plane anymore if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to a supermarket if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go out to dinner if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to museums if I dont want to risk cancer

My choices of where to work is SEVERELY limited if I dont want to risk cancer

I can not go to malls if I dont want to risk cancer

I can no longer go to concerts or any stadium events if I dont want to risk cancer

 

 

...

 

this is the choices I had when I was a kid and didnt know better. So now I need to stay home or only go to public places for the rest of my life or risk getting cancer and dying...

 

 

... sorry Bruce.. I have to agree to disagree. While this might be seen as a loss of freedom and I see the point.. Lives are saved and no one has to risk getting cancer and dying with this.

A smoker can go anywhere now without any risk of anyone poisoning him/her.

 

Not true we smokers are forced outside for a smoke, and it is fundamentally against our human rights. Non smokers want the whole planet to them selves. How selfish is that...

Not one smoker want's that, just to go into a pub turn right or left whichever the smoking half is and the non smoker can go into the other side.

See on entering the pub you and I have a choice...

 

 

Regards

El Tel

 

Edit

Several Typo's

Edited by El Tel
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I can't see where you are coming from, this far from what smokers are saying. Not one smoker want to limit a non smoker on his choice of work or where he/she finds their recreation.

 

You say this but prove my statements wrong... What choice do I have if these places allow smoking?

 

 

All we smokers want is the "Freedom Of Choice"

 

as long as you are not jeopardising anyone elses health I agree with you. This includes people that 'choose' to be near you while you smoke

 

 

 

If you are referring to smokers, why should they be ostracised out in the cold in winter. We want our choice as well and all we are asking for is a separate facility inside so we can enjoy our pint in a well ventilated room away from non smoker.

 

So you really believe a business is going to start building separate heavily ventilated areas in their establishments? I have no problem with this... the law should say no smoking unless a business pays for a seperate heavily ventilated area that is endorsed by the Health department as being safe for anyone else.

 

 

 

Not true we smokers are forced outside, and it is fundamentally against our human rights. Non smokers want the whole planet to them selves. how selfish is that...

Not one smoker what that, just to go into a pub turn right or left which ever the smoking half is and the non smoker go into th other side.

See on entering the pub you and I have a choice...

 

Wow... I agree 100% with you... I didnt realize you are forced outside even when not smoking... Thats horrible... If this is true.. then I take back EVERYTHING. (You are forced outside only to the point where you feel you have to smoke andf possibly make others sick.

 

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Hi

 

I can't see where you are coming from, this far from what smokers are saying. Not one smoker want to limit a non smoker on his choice of work or where he/she finds their recreation.

 

You say this but prove my statements wrong... What choice do I have if these places allow smoking?

 

 

just to go into a pub turn right or left whichever the smoking half is and the non smoker can go into the other side.

See on entering the pub you and I have a choice...

 

Regards

El Tel

 

Edit

Several Typo's

 

 

I mave marked in in bold and enlarged the word Choice

 

Regards

El Tel

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only if they build smokers a separate enclosed ventalated room that the health org. approves. ..

 

 

at that point.. I agree...

 

 

the law should read no smoking except where there is an enclosed ventalated room approved by the health organization. I will agree to that 100%. I hope they change the law to reflect that...

 

of course this will run into thousands of dollars in renovations for the owners but I think its a small price to pay for freedom.

 

 

So I see we do agree... Very nice

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What choice do I have if these places allow smoking?

 

The same choice we have, either you go in, or you don't. The very reason so many bars went out of business and or were/are hurting badly when the laws took affect. People made the decision not to go in.

 

If they allowed smoking, you of course would have the same choice as all those people who chose not to go in when smoking was banned.

 

It is a choice that people make. Smokers chose not to go, you of course could make the same choice they did.

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there is still a difference....

 

 

Worst case scenarios

 

you go into a no smoking pub and the worst thing that happens is you get drunk and feel you need a cigarette.

 

I go into a smoking allowed pub and I breath in second hand smoke and have the possibility of getting cancer and dying.

 

 

 

You go into a non smoking bar.. no one there poisons you (except maybe the alchohol)

I go into a smoking allowed bar and I could get poisoned.

 

 

You can go out and smoke

I cant go out and remove the second hand smoke from my lungs

 

 

(that is the difference in choices)

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so your way is dont go in or risk cancer

 

the current way is anyone goes in and if a smoker feels the need to smoke they can go outside...

 

the difficulty is seeing that those 2 are equally fair choices.

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Pretty much.

 

To be honest, most of them just stopped going to bars and pubs.

 

So the bars are for the most part empty all day, save one or two people, while they used to have decent business all day.

 

Shame they have to suffer because people want to impose their restrictions on them, rather then make the simple choice of not going into places the don't like.

 

*I don't like that place, so rather then go somewhere else I will make them change the way they do business, to hell with whether it hurts them or not.*

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Pretty much.

 

so since you made this suggestion for non smokers, it should be no problem for the smokers

 

To be honest, most of them just stopped going to bars and pubs.

 

So the bars are for the most part empty all day, save one or two people, while they used to have decent business all day.

 

and if there were no law, I would suspect there would be the same exact thing... smokers going in and all the non smokers not risking cancer. Dont think with or without the law it would make much diffence except saving lives.

 

Shame they have to suffer because people want to impose their restrictions on them, rather then make the simple choice of not going into places the don't like.

 

Your way forces non smokers to avoid these places (cancer is not an option). the current way forces nothing except smokers who are not willing to hold off smoking while around others so they dont give others cancer

 

*I don't like that place, so rather then go somewhere else I will make them change the way they do business, to hell with whether it hurts them or not.*

 

no its not that 'I dont like that place'... its more like 'I LOVE that place but I dont want to die over it' and there would be no 'Somewhere else'.

 

Smokers would rather smoke in confined areas and say to hell with whether or not it kills others or not.

 

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Nobody will force you to enter any establishment to don't want to go in.

 

Yes indeed many places went completely out of business when these laws took affect and the ones that were able to stay open lost a lot of business.

 

Most of that lost business never returned. The ones that went out of business was a complete loss for everyone, the owners, the employees and the customers, the vendors..............

 

Repeal the law for such businesses and they wouldn't loose business it would increase three fold. many that closed would likely even reopen.

 

Again, like the people who stopped going, you don't have to either.

 

You can do as they now choose to do, stay home and do their drinking, have parties at home, or sit out on the sidewalk.

 

It's choice.

Edited by Bruce
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Repeal the law for such businesses and they wouldn't loose business it would increase three fold. many that closed would likely even reopen.

 

so you are counting on the people (non smokers) who will go into these establishments and risk getting cancer and dying.. in fact it sounds like this is preferrable to you. If you can smoke in these establishments... then the non smokers will come too (not sure of any other way to increase it three fold) and we can give them our poisons.. As long as we can smoke and have our freedoms.. who cares about those people who choose to come in. They want to risk cancer by my smoke.. who cares about them. Who cares about the workers sho serve me the drinks.. they can get another job someone else I am sure.. or let him breath in my poison... no problem with me as long as I can smoke.

 

 

Again, like the people who stopped going, you don't have to either.

 

You can do as they now choose to do, stay home and do their drinking, have parties at home, or sit out on the sidewalk.

 

It's choice.

why cant you see its NOT a choice.... Cancer is NOT a choice. YOU currently have a choice. Go to the establishment and try your best to hold off smoking for an hour or so and smoke outside if you need to or dont go to the establishment. Neither one will have a side affect of poisoning you (besides your own smoking)

Edited by hftmrock
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Hi

 

only if they build smokers a separate enclosed ventalated room that the health org. approves. ..

 

 

at that point.. I agree...

 

 

the law should read no smoking except where there is an enclosed ventalated room approved by the health organization. I will agree to that 100%. I hope they change the law to reflect that...

 

of course this will run into thousands of dollars in renovations for the owners but I think its a small price to pay for freedom.

 

 

So I see we do agree... Very nice

 

Spot on, at least we have that straight; reinstating our / your "Freedom Of Choice"Posted Image

 

 

Or you could sit out on the sidewalk and drink.

 

Sidewalk = Pavement here

Unless the pavement immediately outside your premises are owned by or is part of the property and fenced off, then not even drinks are allowed outside to drink here in the UK.

Yet non smokers don't seem to fight for their rights, when a lot of pub in the UK are within yards of a busy road. Carbon Monoxide fumes is far more dangerous that cigarette smoke. And that can categorically be proved.

 

 

so could a smoker.... is that what they are doing lately?

 

Not by CHOICE

 

Regards

El Tel

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