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moon

In a democracy......

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Well, I just know that you're one of those peeps who believe that the Arabs attacked the Israelis first. Right ?

 

 

Bruce

You have evidence to the contrary moon?

Ah. Now what I should say is 'show me your evidence that the Arabs attacked Israel first'. You won't be able to , you know, because it simply isn't true. It's another of those propaganda successes which have enabled one country to subjugate another, in modern history, when safeguards are supposed to exist to prevent any such event.

If you research a little you will find that the general consensus of opinion is that it was Israel which began large-scale military action ( war) after Partition in 1947. The Arab army didn't enter the conflict until after the Israelis had begun their programme of razing Arab villages in Palestine. The 'popular' picture of a brave and innocent new nation of Jews being attacked by Arabs is a deceit. I'm quite angry about it, actually, as I believed it myself until fairly recently.

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I asked you about the war earlier. About its legality. Of course you can deny Israels right to exist but then you would have to deny the UN the authority that you already wish it would exert upon Israel.

If you've had thoroughly read the contents of the legal opinion I posted earlier you'd know that war itself is illegal.

I don't deny Israel's right to exist at all. I appreciate the conditions existing after WWII and I appreciate the good intent of the United Nations. The UN have given us the legal framework to survive through the nuclear age. Take away the UN though, and the laws and treaties it embodies, and Israel doesn't have any sort of a claim to existence.

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If you've had thoroughly read the contents of the legal opinion I posted earlier you'd know that war itself is illegal.

 

 

So when Israel was attacked by multiple Arab states not long after its creation that military activity against Israel was illegal per your interpretation of international law.

 

Now we have what you call an illegal occupation of a state that doesnt actually exist and has NEVER EXISTED (Palestine)

 

It seems to me there is some confusion about who is occupying who and for what reasons. One must ask themselves if the land Israel claimed after the war is rightly theirs. As reperations for an illegal war? One must also ask themselves that without Arab aggression would Israel have felt the need to expand its borders? Another question that comes up is that without the war Israel would not know that they can pretty much destroy the surrounding arab states. Would they then have the confidence to expand their borders if this even never happened? Dont forget, this all occured prior to heavy US influence and aid to the Israel government.

 

I just think your delusional when you claim that peace can be found by an Israeli withdraw to its 1967 borders. Every palestinian/arab terrorist org has demanded the destruction of Israel and the removal of jews from the "Holy Land." This includes but is not limited to Hamas and AQ.

Edited by one2gamble

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So when Israel was attacked by multiple Arab states not long after its creation that military activity against Israel was illegal per your interpretation of international law.

This premise is founded on error. Subsequently , so is the rest of your argument.

 

Try ' When the Arab League intervened against Israeli ethnic cleansing '

Edited by moon

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There are MANY recorded instances of Israeli attacks against Palestinian villages WEEKS before the Arab League entered the war. What sort of 'proof' can I provide ?

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Undisputed Wiki good enough ?

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_Yassin

 

The Deir Yassin Massacre April 9th 1948

 

 

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab-Israeli_War

 

Arab League declares war May 15th 1948

 

In an official cablegram from the Secretary-General of the League of Arab States to the UN Secretary-General on May 15, 1948, the Arab states publically proclaimed their aim of creating a "United State of Palestine" in place of the Jewish and Arab, two-state, UN Plan.

I guess the UN two-state plan wasn't looking so hot, eh ?

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moon. what do you call the Palestinians that threw 69-year-old Leon Klinghoffer off the Achille Lauro in a wheel chair.1970 February 21

Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine blow up a Swiss airliner just after it has taken off from Zurich, Switzerland, killing all forty seven people on board

or these people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdel_Aziz_Rantisi

 

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48178

 

:blink:

Edited by t.rex1972

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I just think your delusional when you claim that peace can be found by an Israeli withdraw to its 1967 borders.

Call me a hopeless optimist but I think you're wrong there one2. First, the Palestinians are every bit as fatigued as the Israelis after sixty years of internicine bloodshed. Second, there is a racist strain in western thought that assumes that Arabs (and Jews) are incapable of settling their own affairs. I beg to differ.

 

Sure, the withdrawal won't solve things tout court. But it does signify the beginning of a peaceful partition of a homeland that both the Israelis and Palestinians call their own.

 

I

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So I will ask you again do you have evidence contrary to the fact that Arabs "started" the 1948 war?

B,

 

Israel is an artificially created state designed to provide a rearguard for the retreating British Empire, regardless of what the Jews or Arabs had in mind. Unless you're prepared to debate colonial history, I think it's unfair of you to demand forward proofs.

 

I

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Iain,

 

It was moon who made the statement, that the Arabs did not start the conflict, he is the one who said.

 

Well, I just know that you're one of those peeps who believe that the Arabs attacked the Israelis first. Right ? :lol:

He made that statement after he constantly stated how Isreal and no one else was in violation of International law. So I asked him where the "extermination of the Jews and the destruction of Isreal" fits into International law.

 

Took almost two days to even get a response from him, and two of us asking repeatedly because he avoided it in any way he could.

 

Finally he provided links to wikipedias that in fact clearely state that the Arabs and 5 Arab states started the war by attacking Jews and Isreal. As if those links would support his wild imagination.

 

 

The very links he posted, hoping no one would actually read them clrealy state the Arabs attacked first. Not only attacked but started right from the begining with the same claims they make today. They did not recognize Isreals right to exist and would not rest until Isreal was no more.

 

The issue starts there and that is still the issue today.

Edited by Bruce

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B,

 

You know I love you but you're avoiding the cardinal point

 

Israel is an artificial state, the creation of which has caused generational turmoil and despair amongst its former inhabitants.

 

I don't begrudge the Israelis for ekeing out their plot in the desert. But I do judge them for taking out their anger against the Nazis on the people they've displaced.

 

I

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The very organiztation that moon claims is the ultimate authority and International law, created the State. The Jews did not create it themselves. The world did that, not the Jews.

 

The Arabs have vowed it's destruction before the state of Isreal was official, and have followed through with their attempts for almost 60 years now.

 

At some point, someone has to recognise that anyone who claims they will not rest until the Jews are extermeinated and Isreal is destroyed as the purveyors of the violence. It is not Isreal who makes these threats to exterminate others.

 

The problem is Iain. That since the UN created Isreal it has had to deal with those who would like nothing more then continue the Nazi extermination of the Jews. They make this fact well known, they did 60 years ago, and still do today.

 

That is where the violence started, and that is the cause of the violence today.

 

History bears out these facts.

 

Yet somehow there are those who deny these facts.

 

Extermination of the Jews, wipe them out, destroy Isreal, no rest until the land is covered withere blood.............That started the wars, that has continued the violence, that is still to this day the issue that keeps the killing and violence going.

 

Yet somehow there are those who support those people. They do so by denying the facts, much the same way others around the world, and some Arab nations claim the holocaust never happened.

 

Sorry but I can't help but think of anti semitism.

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B,

 

Yes we're a racist lot. But we improve with time. That would include Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists, Jains, animists, heathens, wiccans, agnostics and atheists etc....

 

As I've said before: Patience is advised.

 

I

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Patience is advised.

That was the advice many Jews followed previously to the creation of Isreal. It lead to the creation of memorials all over the world to the 6 million Jews who were patient. :mrsgreen:

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Are you suggesting that if Isreal was not armed and willing to protect herself that it would not be similar?

 

If Isreal had no means of defending itself, do you think these people would "NOT" follow through with their promises?

 

I personally think they would follow through with them. They have proven their desire to do so for decades now.

 

I have nothing to go by but their own promises to "exterminate the jews", and destroy Isreal.

 

Is that different from WW2 Germany?

 

The only difference is the Jews are now armed and willing to fight. Not only willing to fight but quite proficient at it.

 

Take away that ability to fight and replace it with the "patients" of the previous era, and yes I would venture to guess we would have many more memorials around the world.

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I have nothing to go by but their own promises to "exterminate the jews", and destroy Isreal.

As I said before, a bit of history would come in handy here. This is not the first time a nation has been threatened with extinction.

 

I

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Bruce... there would be no Israel

 

and the people that are seeing Israel as the ONLY bad guys... would be saying... Hey... now maybe we should look at what the palestinians have done... maybe they did wrong here....

 

 

It would be a bit late and a dollar short... I would rather have all those people alive and have some extremists look at this as ALL Israels fault then be proven right and no state of Israel left.

 

 

:beer:

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Bruce, your post ( #212) is complete and utter tripe, totally contrary to what I have written and about as divorced from the reality of what has been posted here as it is possible to get. :lol: I suggest that you have some form of Middle Eastern myopia that can only be treated by a good bout of Strapping. You'd better go back and re-read when you sober up. :lol:

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As I said before, a bit of history would come in handy here. This is not the first time a nation has been threatened with extinction.

 

I

 

 

Your absolutelty right Iain. It isn't the first.

 

Nor is it the first to exersize it's right to defend itself in the face of those threats of extermination. ;)

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Bruce, your post ( #212) is complete and utter tripe, totally contrary to what I have written and about as divorced from the reality of what has been posted here as it is possible to get. :lol: I suggest that you have some form of Middle Eastern myopia that can only be treated by a good bout of Strapping. You'd better go back and re-read when you sober up. :lol:

 

Just reread it moon. It seems pretty accurate to me. Care to point out which part is "complete utter tripe" other then the qoute.

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:geezer:

 

You Know?

 

Reading this Thread is like watching a Great Game of Cricket, or to Americans? Baseball!

 

The Stratergy from both sides is Wonderful, all they want to do is WIN!

 

This is totally different! In Cricket or Baseball, people don't DIE!

 

If someone is silly enough to drop a "Big One" in that Area, there will be no more World, as we know it!

 

"Softly, Softly" should be the way to treat what is happening over there, JMHO!

 

:sparkle::wub::sparkle:

Edited by Drovers Dog

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