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Everything posted by Countrydave55

  1. I agree we should get back on subject. For those of you still confused please contact someone at your state's health care licensing board o go to the Doctor's of osteopathy website. I think the subject was education and its value for income. Someone asserted that if 25% of the US population were not illiterate that there would be no poverty. There is no evidence that the rate of illiteracy even approaches 1% in the US (citation previous). My questions are with illiteracy so low why is poverty so high and why would some one think that 1 in 4 people is illiterate? In the first case I think that even common sense indicates that this is not true. Cuba for example has a higher average educational attainment than the US but is among the poorest countries. In the US there are many examples of educational attainment not predicting wealth. Many famous actors and producers have seven figure incomes but did not complete a bachelor's degree. I don't believe Bill Gates completed his bachelor's degree and he is very wealthy. As for the 25% illiteracy I think it is important to figure how such inaccuracies are spread. More damaging than a 25% illiteracy rate is a willingness to accept statistics which are invalid. Yet we see this all too often. Look at the current presidential campaign. Someone says that things are going great or bad but either do not support their statement or, even worse, their statements are not supportable. I think that this lack of critical thinking (I.Q.) is far more important than educational attainment).
  2. Z10 - Please go to the Osteopathy websites. They say you don't need a bachelor's degree to be admitted to their school (this is true for allopaths as well). I doubt most most professional sports teams have DO's as team physicians. I know the team physicians for the Lightening, and the Buc's and they are not DO's. Yo said your wife is a physician, speech pathologist and developmental psychologist. Perhaps you could ask her if DOs are MDs that continued training. You assert that DO's make more money than MD's. Their website indicates that they can make $100,000 I don't know an MD that would accept a salaried position for less than $150,000. "The minimum educational requirement for entry into a medical school is 3 years of college; most applicants, however, have at least a bachelor’s degree, and many have advanced degrees. There are 146 medical schools in the United States—126 teach allopathic medicine and award a Doctor of Medicine (M.D.) degree; 20 teach osteopathic medicine and award the Doctor of Osteopathic Medicine (D.O.) degree. Acceptance to medical school is highly competitive. Applicants must submit transcripts, scores from the Medical College Admission Test, and letters of recommendation. Schools also consider applicants’ character, personality, leadership qualities, and participation in extracurricular activities. Most schools require an interview with members of the admissions committee." from the U.S. Govt. Occupational Handbook The DO's website even claim that they are generally not specialists. Please do not continue to assert that DO's are superior to MD's in their training. While they may or may not be inferior even their own website clearly indicates that you do not need additional training after becoming an MD to become an osteopath. Granted if an allopath wanted to also be an osteopath they would need additional training but that is true of osteopaths as well. For a DO to become an MD they must then go to medical school.
  3. Chopdoc I agree with much of what you say but I would say that DOs can practice in all states in the union. In FL they have a different practice act, to the best of my knowledge this was true in NC and Tex. I honestly can't remember about Tenn.
  4. Z10 "Funny, there's a degree from Indiana and one from Yale hanging on his office wall, he was an Orthopedic Surgeon before becoming an Osteopath. " I am sure this is sort of right. Please read the diplomas. Osteopaths graduate Osteopathy with a degree as an Osteopathic Physician and Surgeon just as Allopaths graduate as a Physician and Surgeon of Medicine. They like allopaths go to internship which is now generally combined with residency. Assuming it was internal medicine or family medicine it will say School name or Hospital name grants so and so training of Internal Medicine residency. That does not make you an allopath only a physician that has trained in the medical specialty of Internal Medicine. It is great that he went to Yale and somewhat surprising given the competition. It doesn't really matter where he completed his residency it doesn't make him an allopath.
  5. Z10- I am sorry but someone is misleading you and may be doing so in a criminal manner. D.O. s are osteopathic physicians. They are not M.D.s They do not go to medical schools although some medical schools have been renamed Osteopathic Medical Schools. Osteopathy is one theory of treating physical illness which has much in common with alopathic medicine but which also includes beliefs about energy and spinal alignment which have more in-common with chiropractic. Physicians from accredited osteopathic schools can go to alopathic residencies. Most go to alopathic residencies because osteopaths are historically opposed to specialization and there are way more alopathic residencies than osteopathic residencies. But Osteopaths are not M.D.s and do not attend Alopathic Medical Schools. Tenn, Fl, N.C., Tex will not allow an Osteopath to be licensed as a alopath or claim to be an alopath by board regulation. I am sure this is true in most states but those are the only states I can speak knowledgeably about.
  6. Z10 I asked for a statute that says one can be prosecuted for treating someone. I never claimed to know everything. Now that you have explained what you meant I still do not see how he/she can be prosecuted. My friend is a plastic and reconstructive surgeon. We fish often and drink occasionally. I asked him about being prosecuted for treating someone. He indicated that as long as it isn't an experimental procedure (or if it is an experimental you need to be doubly sure that you have informed consent) that he can treat anyone. He may not get payed but he won't be prosecuted. Now I know we aren't in the same state so different statute applies. If you could please show me statute or case law that says a licensed physician practicing within the scope of their license can be prosecuted for billing an insurance company for services rendered I would greatly appreciate it. I don't want to speak for Chopdoc but he might be interested as well. I think he says he does locum tenens. This could be very helpful.
  7. "Educating people helps them to earn more" Helps yes but does not guarantee. "make better choices in life." This seems plausible but what evidence do you have to support it. Many smart, rich people use drugs, overeat, exercise too little. What evidence is there that less well educated people do these things at a higher rate? "It helps to reduce the crime rate, the incidence of domestic violence, unwanted pregnancies, communicable diseases, etc. " There is absolutely no evidence that domestic violence decreases with increased education. I would agree that some crimes decrease with education but insurance fraud, tax evasion, and many other crimes are much higher with well educated people. As for "unwanted pregnancies, communicable diseases, etc" you may be looking at correlation and not causation. Pregnancy is difficult to avoid if you can't afford prophylaxis. TB is readily spread in close quarters without adequate ventilation or exposure to UV. If you cram a bunch of smart, rich people in a small room with a person that has TB they will become infected. After all don't doctors, nurses, and teachers have a high incidence of TB? "There will always be a spectrum of ability, but right now the number operating far below their ability is astounding. " I am assuming this is your opinion as I know of no data that support the statement nor do I think it could be easily demonstrated. What is someones ability? How does one measure that? How does one measure their achievement relative to their ability? What contributes to the discrepancy? You indicate that it is education but what evidence do you have to support this assertion.
  8. "Basically, how you set your prices and how you do your billing gets very complicated when you accept insurance. If you bill non-insurance patients a certain way they can get you for insurance fraud. You have to be very careful. That's why you hire a billing specialist or sign on with a billing service. It is very expensive." Billing is tricky in any profession and contract fraud is always a risk. Nevertheless many Doctor's do their own billing (that is their clerical staff do). Up-coding is the most common form of insurance card and also the most difficult to prove without a whistle blower. While this cases surface occasionally they are fairly rare and most prosecution takes place in egregious cases (billing dead people). I think prosecution of billing errors is very rare. I don't see how you can get from billing to ""he can't legally treat someone without the proper insurance" " I agree people with handicaps and disabilities face many difficulties and hardships. That does not mean that they cannot benefit from education nor does it mean that education can remediate all disabilities.
  9. "he can't legally treat someone without the proper insurance" I would love to know in what state in the United States that it is illegal to provide medical treatment by a licensed medical treatment provider if they do not have insurance or the proper insurance. Could you please cite the statute? Earlier Z10 wrote "Good thing we aren't discussing IQ's then, since the issue is Intelligence, and how high levels of intelligence corelate to higher income. " You were correct we were talking about education resulting in income and you cited data showing that intelligence correlated with income. Since intelligence is not directly measurable and can only be assessed by IQ testing then I would think IQ is relevant. Especially since education is neither necessary nor sufficient for intelligence while intelligence is necessary but not sufficient for education. To suggest that someone with an IQ of 70 can complete education at the doctoral degree level is beyond naive. Thus the premise that educating everyone will result in people making more money is invalid. Someone wrote "The problem I see with raising the minimum wage is that it don't do much of anything for those who need the increased income. A few extra grand per year to some poor shmo won't help him/her out of their financial plight, they'll end up spending the money on frivolous and usually material items. People in the lower income bracket will remain in the lower income bracket, and people in the middle class sure won't be making the jump to "rich" any time soon. It will "feel good" in the short term, but wont be enough to truly help those who are stuck in a financial rut." While we may all wish to move into the upper class I think many people are willing to be in the middle class. The problem is without a raise in the minimum wage the people in the middle class are falling into the lower class and the lower class certainly aren't going to move up. As for "money on frivolous and usually material items". In whose eyes are they frivolous. If you are living on food stamps in HUD housing why don't you deserve to take your few thousand dollars and go to a movie, buy a whopper, or rent a DVD? If you are poor does this mean that you should be miserable? As far as the "usually material items" I don't understand. Where should their money be spent ? On spiritual things? Should they be giving their extra income to the church? While they are certainly welcome to (it is their money) why should you tell them to put the money into spiritual activities? Someone wrote "Something like 1 in 4 adults cannot read, THEY CANNOT READ! That's pathetic. I was at the hospital the other day, I saw a man who couldn't write his own name, he had to sign an X, it was sad. If people aren't able to help themselves, then it won't matter how much money you give them, they will still be dependant upon someone else for their survival" The illiteracy rate in the United States is 0.9% Literacy not 25% That is a pretty big difference. I agree that someone that cannot read will have significant problems acting independently but lacking education (the ability to write) does not mean that they cannot reason. They may well perform very well when given information orally. These people are sometimes known as learning disabled. They have a impairment in some skills relative to other skills. Someone wrote "If most people here at the pit received a government check for $3,000, it's highly unlikely that they'd put that money in savings or pay off debit, rather they'll spend it on pleasures, they'd "treat" themselves. This is how tax cuts boost the economy, it's the same principal, the government KNOWS that the majority of Americans will spend the money because it's not enough to do anything productive. " I thought this is how an increase in the minimum wage works. You take the extra money and spend it. The money you spend is taxed increasing govt. revenue instead of government debt. If your premise is correct- that tax cuts to the low and middle class are spent why did the govt. give pennies to the lower class and middle class and dollars to the upper class. The very class which you seem to acknowledge is the least likely to put money back into the economy except through savings or investment overseas.
  10. It seems that IQ is not defined as educational attainment by these references. "What is intelligence? The definition I like is that intelligence is "the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations ... also : the skilled use of reason" (7)*. I have heard some people misuse the word smart to mean knowledgeable. That is like confusing velocity with distance. That one can lead to the other does not mean that they are the same thing." reference see alsoalso The latter says IQ increase generally stops at 16. Since education often continues another 10 years I don't see how education can determine IQ. This may be an example of a correlation. High IQ is associated with high academic education. But correlation is not causation. Headaches are alleviated by aspirin. That does not mean that headaches are caused by a lack of aspirin.
  11. If high IQ is = to high income then education is a waste of time. IQ by definition is intellectual capacity not academic achievement. Thank you for resolving the issue Z10. The govt. can now stop supporting education. That means the govt. should either resolve to pay a higher minimum wage to reduce poverty or simply allow the minimum wage to remain where it is but certainly not to waste money on education. In fact, this would seem to suggest that education should cost more and be subsidized less. After all the bright people are more likely to seek further education and will be the ones making the most money. They will be able to pay for their education easiest. Those who are less bright will get a subsidized education that will not help their income and the money for their education is being squandered.
  12. Bruce I am not sure that your statements are inconsistent with mine. I can only speak to the Fl. school system which implemented a separate plan under Jeb Bush this is supposed to be compatible with GWB's plan which was passed ofter Jeb's. Under Jeb's plan a standardized test is given. The school is graded (as in A, B, C, D, etc.) based upon the score the students get in Fl. normed examinations. The School's grades determine funding. Failing school's parents are given an opportunity to get voucher's to leave the school and go elsewhere. The school's state funding is based upon its grade with higher schools getting more money. The schools therefore teach to the tests and try to move under performing students out of the system because they lower the school's grade. The Fl school system is receiving less federal money because the leave all kids behind program measurement system is not the same as Jeb's and this has resulted in well performing schools using the Fl measurement system to look poor using the GWB measurement system. Odd. You would think that if we know what the criteria are. There is consensus about the criteria then we could objectively measure them.
  13. Historically education has resulted in an increase earnings such that more education results in more income. As with any attempt to predict future events based upon past events the assumption that "all other things are equal" is made. We know that all other things are not ever equal and this may be particularly so now. Some jobs that went to the most educated part of the population are now being sent overseas. Examples of highly educated jobs which are being outsourced to cheaper over seas labor markets. Diagnostic Radiology - readings are done in India and reports transmitted back to the hospital. Neurology - EEGs are being transmitted overseas for review, interpretation, and reports transmitted back for review. Cardiology - EKGs are being transmitted overseas for review, interpretation, and reports transmitted back for review. Electrical Engineering, Software Engineering, and Architecture projects are being completed overseas and reviewed in the US. I am not saying that we can or should stop outsourcing only that education as a solution to low income may not be as reliable as it has been historically. We know that education does not automatically result in a higher wage. Chopdoc with a bachelor's degree (presumably) and some medical education went to work at Best Buy briefly. Was he paid $30,000 a year (typical of jobs with a college education). I doubt it. I guess he was paid the same as anyone else taking that job. If everyone in the US had a bachelor's degree or more who would sweep the floors and flip the burgers? Answer people with Bachelor's degrees. The point is that education results in more income if jobs requiring more education are available and those jobs pay more (i.e., are available in the market work). I personally think education is useful and encourage it. I would encourage education for someone who only plans to flip burgers. But education alone will not increase income. The minimum wage. In a free market economy the employer will pay as little as the employer can pay to fill positions needed to complete the work in order to maximize their profit. As the labor supply increases the fee for the labor decreases. The minimum wage in this country would be a nickel or less if there were not a statutory requirement setting the minimum wage at a higher level. The government must intervene to set a minimum wage. What happens to people that have to support a family on minimum wage but the minimum wage will not support the family? The answer. You put the children to work as soon as possible to supplement the family income. You apply for Medicaid to pay for your health care because you can't. You apply for food stamps because you can't afford food. You live in subsidized housing so that there s a roof over their kids head. Who pays for subsidized housing, Medicaid, and food stamps. We all do. It is called taxes. If the goal is to stop taxing and stop subsidizing people working at minimum wage then I agree don't raise the minimum wage. The result will be people starving on the streets. If the goal is to get people off of the public dole then give them a living wage. What about the inability to read and write. The leave children behind program under this administration incentivises schools for improved school scores on reading and writing and I think math. I would say this is laudable but look at how it has been implemented. The incentives are backwards. Children in 3rd grade 8 years old are being held back or diverted to special classes. This is necessary for the weakest performers because they may need remedial experience. But many are held back and fall into the well documented pattern of failure experience, low self esteem, physical bullying. Even better in 6th grade the schools encourage students that are behind to drop out so that the schools average remains high. So instead of truly increasing the knowledge and education of students you have a process by which the schools produce higher school averages by rote memorization and by culling out under performers. How does that increase knowledge, skills, and abilities?
  14. Politics is war. If one inserts oneself into the political fray then they are a combatant. Why should one combatant be exempt from the activities of the war if they are a combatant?
  15. I really don't understand the fuss. Dick Chaney and his wife have openly acknowledged that their daughter is gay. The daughter has acknowledged that she is gay. The daughter says she is proud of being gay. Dick & his wife have said they are proud of their daughter and respect her right in a free country to live in a fashion that she wishes. She has been campaigning for the Bush Chaney ticket in the gay community (until Bush's constitutional amendment position). She may still be campaigning for Bush Chaney (I simply don't know and haven't heard). I will say this. If the Chaneys were offended by mentioning that their daughter is gay they must not be quite as open and accepting of it as they claim. Perhaps they too are professing that it is acceptable to be gay. Talk about being politically correct. Is it now the case that you cannot mention how a person self describes themselves? Can only that person use a label they have labeled themselves? Are we now where Colin Powell can get up and say for example "As a black man I felt I had opportunities provided by the military and I am proud of my success." But if someone else said " as a black man Colin Powell had opportunities in the military and became a success" that that would be harmful or hurtful? I don't get it. Are gays people that cannot be mentioned unless you are gay? If that is the Chaney Bush position I want out. There is plenty enough censorship without having to eliminate words like gay, black, Asian, myopic, tall, short and other labels.
  16. I think this is the topic. Bush claims to only pretend to be tolerant of Chaney's daughter's lifestyle but that isn't offensive? While citing an openly gay person as an example of someone who would affirm that they "didn't choose to be gay" is offensive? How much more topical would you like this to be? It is even in your quote.
  17. I think it was much more significant that Bush said "But as we respect someone's rights, and as we profess tolerance, we shouldn't change -- or have to change -- our basic views on the sanctity of marriage. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. I think it's very important that we protect marriage as an institution, between a man and a woman. " profess" To make a pretense of; pretend: “top officials who were deeply involved with the arms sales but later professed ignorance of them” "
  18. I agree that the citizens are failing the country but I think that the problems are big money, laziness, and selfishness. Big money whether corporations or captains of industry have access and influence on the political process disproportionate to their value. This is true for either party all though each party seems to be favored by subsets of wealthy or business and the subsets do not have much overlap. This is to be expected but that isn't the point. Why should any company or person be able to buy votes? I know that that in any business, family, or political enterprise there has to be compromise and exchange of support but this has become a cancer. Laziness. I speak to people all of the time and they parrot back whatever Fox News or Limbaugh have to say. When ask if they looked at where the original citations are/were or if they looked at articles in Newsweek/Time/WSJ etc. they usually say no. They defend this behavior by saying they "don't have time", or "there is no need because it just makes sense", or the worst possible excuse "the media are all biased". Well if you think the media are all biased why would you rely upon on only one source of information? If you wanted to eat healthier would you go to the cattleman's association and ask for diet recommendations? Isn't this like asking the tobacco growers association if smoking is bad for you? Lets face the strongest thing they might say is that "we have evidence that it can be helpful for some people". How do you make an informed decision based upon only one side of a story? I don't know what to say about selfishness. No matter how giving and caring very few people are willing to vote against their own best interest. Even wealthy people that benefited from the tax cut and don't support generally say things like "the debt will hurt the country" or "the poor need the money" not "I don't like having more money". Of the three things I see contributing to our political problems I think that selfishness is the least likely to be changed/modified.
  19. "Haliburton was used on a no bid contract because they were best equipped to handle the situation and by doing so avoided unnecessary delays." Just your opinion DW no facts here.
  20. Dave, with all due respect, you seem to misunderstand how republicans debate. The only use the part of the message that is helpful. They have no use for the context or content beyond what they can excerpt. A good example is Bush's statement today that Kerry said during the debate that any security decisions about the United States have to be approved by the other nations and our allies. I listened intently and have read the transcripts in the newspaper. Kerry never said that. Nevertheless I am confident that this one line Mantra will be repeated until people believe it. The same thing has happened with the republicans claim of WMD and that Saddam is/was linked to 9/11. Seemingly bright people have accepted this to be true despite overwhelming evidence that it isn't. They have tried the same thing wit "the war is going great" but no Rumsfield acknowledges problems and so even they are acknowledging what only fools failed to see.
  21. Branches- As has been said there is really not anything to unsubcribe from. Your membership does not obligate you to o anything, there is no fee, and there is no spam.
  22. And this just in. In the last 30 days there have been 2,300 terrorist attacks in Iraq. The report says the attacks are spread widely and no area is without terrorist activity although some areas have much more terrorism than others. Fallujah has shown a significant decrease in the amount of terrorist activity during this time period. Of course this success is offset by the fact that Fallujah is now completely controlled by the insurrectionists and has been for almost 2 months. I am sorry I just don't see a lot of good news and success for the allies in this report. In the mean time the US National Guard failed to meet its recruitment goal. The Army is struggling with its recruitment goal. Large numbers of the ready reserved that have been called up are late to report for duty and of those that have reported 80% have requested hardship deferments.
  23. "depends on who you ask...a jew certainly wouldn't agree." It also depends upon what sect of christianity one adheres to. There are sects that place greater emphasis on some books or teachings than others. That is why there are so many sects. As an interesting aside madrases are springing up all over Iraq being led by radical conservative mullahs. The security situation and the change in priorities has slowed or halted the restoration and reopening of secular educational institutions in Iraq. The Iraqi Education minister said that they are concerned about the trend but cannot do anything about it right now. Given that even Bush days that the conservative madrases are schools for terrorists how can he argue that terrorism is being wiped out and that the country (Iraq) is on the right path?
  24. "Islam has a VERY different set of beliefs, one of them is in fact, and this cannot be disputed, that nonmuslems are to be converted, or enslaved and then killed. Im not sure where you are going with the republican thing there but im sure we will be debating that one soon enough. " I think you mean Christianity has a VERY different set of beliefs, one of them is in fact, and this cannot be disputed, that nonchristians are to be converted, or enslaved and then killed. This was the prevailing Christian belief and not doctrine until about 100 years ago. There are still many conservative Christians the espouse this belief. This is a problem with western religions not with Christianity or Islam.
  25. I share your concern CPU. Fighting in Iraq even if we did establish democracy (which not even Bush can seriously harbor delusional beliefs of) would only cause terrorists to shift their focus to other areas of influence like Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, or Indonesia. Terrorism is not about a place. It is about a belief and a method. Bush and Rumfield are making the same mistake Generals have made since there were organized Armies. They are fighting the last war with weapons and skills designed for the last war.
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